Do to enormous pressure put upon me by the enigmatic hottie from Louisiana Chordphrute …here are my thoughts on the separation of church and state…world view.
There is no…never will be a true separation of church and state. We may be able to separate the entity of government from the entities of religion but the accomplishment of the separation of the philosophy of ones belief from government is another matter entirely and cannot be accomplished in order to attain a true separation of church and state.
How do people view the “separation of church and state”?
There is the view of the separation of church and state being the fact that a country does not have an official religion or that the government does not collect taxes from or fund religious institutions. There is the point of view that the separation of church and state involves keeping religion out of public policy making, keeping religion out of governmental affairs or vice versa keeping government out of religious affairs.
In every election that I have followed there has never been a single one that at some point the candidates religious beliefs or preference was not at some point a topic of interest by the electorate. It does not matter what country it is...the ones I have seen it has always come up at some point in the election.
Separation of church and state?
I shake my head…will never happen. At least not in my lifetime…my daughters lifetime not for generations untold will it ever happen…if it ever happens because our philosophies inevitably govern our actions. Perhaps not in every action we take or decision we make. Perhaps a decision we make does not go along with what we believe but what we believe entered into the decision making process…we either went along with our belief or we went against it.
A person simply cannot totally separate themselves from there beliefs in every decision that they make and when there are millions of people working for the “state” there is no way to ever attain a total separation of church and state.
Some countries have it in their constitution while others have laws that provide for a separation between government and religion as an argument to keep religious and spiritual views out of certain areas of society and government…especially government. But even if it was written in blood and cast in stone it simply cannot be done because there is no such thing for the very reason that it cannot be done. Not in the United States, Ireland, Scotland or any country on the face of this planet we call Earth.
There are those who claim no religious/spiritual belief system at all. Very good for them if that is what they choose to believe but they are a vast minority on this world.
On a world were 17 to 18% claim to be non-religious…but when you break that 18% down you find that around 15.5% of them do have some form of a religious or spiritual belief they just claim to have no “religious preference” so that leaves us with between 1.5 and 2.5% of the worlds population who have no religious or spiritual belief at all…true atheists. Some statistical data puts the number of true atheists at about 4%. With so few people (compared to the worlds population) you will never have a governmental system totally run by people who have no religious or spiritual belief. (it will at least be very highly improbable). Lets go with the high number…and increase it by 1% to be even more conservative in the statistical estimates…so 5% of the worlds population are atheist…with the majority of those being in Europe and the majority of those are in Eastern European countries. The United States has much less than 0.5% who claim to be Atheist…I will increase the estimate and more than double that number to 1% just to be highly conservative. In a country approaching 300 million in population that would mean that 3 million are atheist. Well the United States federal government…excluding the military, employs nearly 3 million…hmmm when you throw in state and local governments…there is no way on earth you can have no person of any religious belief not working in government.
There simply cannot be a true separation of church and state when you live in a country that has a predominantly religious society no matter what laws are passed it would not even matter if it was clearly stated in the constitution of that country in black and white…“There will be a separation of church and state in all things”…it could still never truly happen and never will as long as there is a predominantly religious society.
You probably thought I was going to solely talk about the United States and bring up historical figures and fill pages with quotes from Thomas Jefferson (whose misinterpreted letter started it all in the U.S.), James Madison and any number of other people from the past. I will not waste my time with that (at least not at the moment...maybe later I will when and if it is advantageous to me) because for every quote that can be skewed for the separation of church and state by American historical figures I can find one by the same person against it. I could post any number of court rulings for and against the idea of separation of church and state which would ultimately be another waste of time (but may do so later). I could quote any number of religious texts for and against as well...but another waste of time (at least at the moment).Why would any of those processes that are usually used to debate the separation of church and state seen as a waste of time? I will answer that for you…Ideals and philosophy cannot be totally regulated…there is no way (at least at this time) to regulate a persons thoughts. There are people who want to do it and would love it if they could…but it can’t happen. Since that cannot happen and we cannot fill all governmental positions with people who have no religious/spiritual beliefs whatsoever then we cannot and will not have a true and complete separation of church and state. That being the case…why even bother to try?
In my opinion all the laws do that try to regulate the “separation of church and state” is infringe upon a persons right of free speech and expression. To me that is like a dog chasing its tail. _________________ All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are
Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine
These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.
Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:08 am
chordphrute
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane
*strolls in, looks around*...
you'll have my reply post-haste, dear one. _________________ "You can't kiss and keep your eyes open, they'll cross forever" - Rubyfruit Jungle
quote:Originally posted by chordphrute:
*strolls in, looks around*...
you'll have my reply post-haste, dear one.
Well you enigmatic hottie...bring...it...on
Hugs,
Eiregirl _________________ All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are
Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine
These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.
Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:41 pm
Eire Guest
Separation of Church and State
I know you know this Eire, but many do not. Contrary to popular opinion, the term 'separation of church and state' is found nowhere in the United
States Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, or any other founding document of this nation. Yet for decades, some organizations and individuals have spread the myth that the words 'separation of church and state' are found in the U.S. Constitution.
It was the intention of the Founding Fathers that religious faith should be encouraged, rather than discouraged. Unfortunately, there are those today who would ignore this and the intentions of our founders.
The First Amendment supports this.
quote:Originally posted by Eire:
I know you know this Eire, but many do not. Contrary to popular opinion, the term 'separation of church and state' is found nowhere in the United
States Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, or any other founding document of this nation. Yet for decades, some organizations and individuals have spread the myth that the words 'separation of church and state' are found in the U.S. Constitution.
It was the intention of the Founding Fathers that religious faith should be encouraged, rather than discouraged. Unfortunately, there are those today who would ignore this and the intentions of our founders.
The First Amendment supports this.
Mdm Prez
Mdm,
You are absolutely correct in my opinion about everything you just said. I would also say that the letter (the letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptist association which is one of the documents many use to defend separation) has been misconstrued by many who push for the separation.
Mdm,
Thank you very much for your reply and comments.
Eiregirl _________________ All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are
Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine
These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.
quote:Originally posted by chordphrute:
*strolls in, looks around*...
you'll have my reply post-haste, dear one.
Stops by and looks in...
hmmm runs to get her dictionary and looks up "post-haste"
AHHH...its and adverb
Eiregirl _________________ All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are
Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine
These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.
Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:34 pm
chordphrute
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane
*mumbles* brat.......*followed by a soft smile* _________________ "You can't kiss and keep your eyes open, they'll cross forever" - Rubyfruit Jungle
Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:37 pm
chordphrute
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane
okay so I've popped by here and read everything above.. and decided it's really hard to argue with everything I completely agree with. _________________ "You can't kiss and keep your eyes open, they'll cross forever" - Rubyfruit Jungle
quote:Originally posted by chordphrute:
okay so I've popped by here and read everything above.. and decided it's really hard to argue with everything I completely agree with.
Ohhh soooo ummmm
You agree that "post-haste" is an adverb blink blink ??
Eiregirl _________________ All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are
Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine
These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.
Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:56 am
chordphrute
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane
quote:Originally posted by Eiregirl:
quote:Originally posted by chordphrute:
okay so I've popped by here and read everything above.. and decided it's really hard to argue with everything I completely agree with.
Ohhh soooo ummmm
You agree that "post-haste" is an adverb blink blink ??
Eiregirl
*grins* _________________ "You can't kiss and keep your eyes open, they'll cross forever" - Rubyfruit Jungle
quote:Originally posted by chordphrute:
okay so I've popped by here and read everything above.. and decided it's really hard to argue with everything I completely agree with.
Ohhh soooo ummmm
You agree that "post-haste" is an adverb blink blink ??
Eiregirl
*grins*
_________________ All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are
Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine
These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.
Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:48 am
realwoman
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: under our tree in Africa
~strolls in and reads what Eire said, and cannot help but to agree with it, but have to ask ...W H Y ???
Maybe its because governemt is put in power by ppl to implement rules and mechanisms that support the will of the ppl, or ther 'values', but...but...but... religion has monopolised 'values', and decides for ppl what their 'values' should be?
Hence, even if you seperate 'church' and 'state' legally or even constitutionally, the values of the ppl will be decided for them by the church??
Just a thought..my quick, not even 2 cents, worth...
quote:Originally posted by realwoman:
~strolls in and reads what Eire said, and cannot help but to agree with it, but have to ask ...W H Y ???
Maybe its because governemt is put in power by ppl to implement rules and mechanisms that support the will of the ppl, or ther 'values', but...but...but... religion has monopolised 'values', and decides for ppl what their 'values' should be?
Hence, even if you seperate 'church' and 'state' legally or even constitutionally, the values of the ppl will be decided for them by the church??
Just a thought..my quick, not even 2 cents, worth...
~real
realwoman,
I would have to say that you said a pounds worth...or dollars worth.
I agree and that is basically my point in a nutshell.
In any society the values of that society are generally decided by a majority within that society. I would not say that the values of the people are decided by the church but I would say they are decided by the values of the majority of the people. I would also be more inclined to say that those values are a reflection of the peoples religious and/or spiritual beliefs because "church" has the overtones of an organized religion. In some countries those values would be the values of a spiritual belief rather than the values set forth by church doctrine. There are also microcosms within a society that have different values than the overall society and those would be the minorities within the overall society. Sometimes the minority can and occasionally do get some of their values recognized and established by the majority but most often those values are similar to the values of the majority and are not seen as a threat to their own.
But all of that does not really matter because it all can be traced back to some form of religious/spiritual belief. Which goes back to what we have already established…you cannot separate church and state.
That was a wonderful reply real and I thank you for it.
Hugs,
Eiregirl _________________ All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are
Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine
These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.
Sat Dec 02, 2006 6:17 am
realwoman
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: under our tree in Africa
Eiregirl,
You are most welcome, and I will certainly make a plan to come and collect my dollar or two..
I do think however that we can take this discussion a little further, albeit that we are in agreement with each other, especially since this is a matter that frequently pops up in general chit-chat.
I liked what you said about a maniroty sometimes convincing the mayority of something. Also, that, when the majority does not see in something the threat to their values, they will readily accept, and even embrace it, and it will become the Will of the ppl to be implemented by the State.
The question then begs: Why are the 'majority' then threatened by homosexuality? Which of the values are under siege? if we can figure this out, maybe a way can be found to ease the process of convincing them?
Looking forward to hear what u all think?
~real _________________ .
.
light is to darkness as love is to fear...
Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:16 pm
Mdm Prez
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1536
Location: U.S. of A.
real
"Why are the 'majority' threatened by homosexuality"
My answer is a departure from the norm, but here it is:
Real, I don't think the majority is threatened by homosexuality. I think the
word 'threatened' is a kinder word created by homosexuals. When in fact I believe that the majority is just sickened by homosexuality. Their disgust is palpable.
So to say 'threatened', that doesn't seem nearly so hurtful to us, does it, as
repulsed. But I think that's closer to reality, we repulse the majority.
Cat _________________ If you're not getting the answers you want,
you're not asking the right questions.
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…here are my thoughts on the separation of church and state…world view.
blink blink ??
