Here are my thoughts…
So F’ing what if she wanted to mention God and Jesus in her speech and speak about how her faith helped her achieve success in school and her life.
It just pisses me off when people get so offended or are afraid to offend other people that they infringe upon a persons constitutional right to free speech…
If you don’t F’ing like what someone has to say then get your ass up and walk the hell out.
Here are my questions…
What does it say about America when a young lady cannot stand in front of her classmates to give her valedictorian commencement speech and speak her mind?
What does it say when this smart, intelligent and hard working young lady cannot say what inspired her to succeed?
What does it say when this girl has to give the school a copy of her speech so they can “approve” it’s content?
What does it say when she is not allowed to tell everyone about the things in her life that are important to her and helped her become the valedictorian of her high school class?
What does it say when she is up on stage giving her valedictorian speech and officials turn her mic off?
Worst of all…what does this say about religious freedom?
What does this say about America?
Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:10 am
Start Over
Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Somewhere in the cosmos
couldn't have said it any better myself
Cheers
Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:37 am
RedViolin1
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 86
Location: Michigan
This is the point:
"District legal counsel Bill Hoffman said the regulation allows students to talk about religion, but speeches can't cross into the realm of preaching.
"We review the speeches and tell them they may not proselytize," Hoffman said. "We encourage people to talk about religion and the impact on their lives. But when that discussion crosses over to become proselytizing, then we to tell students they can't do that."
Be honest with me. Would you feel just as open about a muslim student receiting passages from the Koran? Or a jewish person chanting in Hebrew? MANY parents would object to either of those. But as long as its THEIR religion its ok?
And last I looked kids in school, even graduating seniors dont have the same rights of free speech as an adult. You earn those rights with age and wisdom.
The young woman was guilty of a lack of wisdom in her speech, she made it all about herself. That's what turns alot of people off about any religion, She'd have done better to be more thoughtful and open-minded.
She will certainly need that if she is to suceed in life outside her small world.
The problem isnt her religious convictions, the problem is pummeling people with a brick about them.
leave the religion to the church. _________________ i am ceaslessly amazing... at times! fun loving, passionate, perfectly imperfect human being.
Some say the glass is half full, some say it's half empty. I drink whats left and ask for a refill!
Thu Jul 06, 2006 6:42 am
bbmaniac
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 248
Location: Houston, TX
While I see your point, Red...that the recitation of the Koran and/or discussion of Muslim beliefs might be offensive, one underlying principle still remains. Censorship tends to become a "slippery slope" proposition regardless of the initial reasoning behind it. Once a society begins making decisions about what can and can't be said, discussed or otherwise expressed...how long do you think it will take before one of your own beliefs, feelings or opinions will be deemed "offensive?"
As a parent, I also understand that my children may be exposed to discussions and ideals that I would not necessarily approve of or condone. So, it's my job to maintain an open dialogue with them, giving them the information they need to form their own opinions as they mature. Using the example you gave, I would explain to my children why we aren't Muslim and why we practice our religion.
You mentioned that this young woman, "was guilty of a lack of wisdom." I would venture to say that all of us have heard someone speak and immediately thought that what they had to say lacked wisdom. The question is, who gets to decide what is appropriate and what isn't?
That brings this entire discussion back to the point Eire made. Either we have free speech and free expression or we don't...period.
BB _________________ For nothing this wide universe I call,
Save thou, my rose; in it thou art my all.
Sonnet 109 - Shakespeare
'I'm just your ordinary, everyday sane-psycho...supergoddess' Liz Phair
--------------------------------------
Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:31 pm
chordphrute
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane
lordy
(Read the whole thing before you fly off the handle)
Proselytizing seems to be a big issue these days. As a non-Christian or non-member of any organized faith per se, I would have to honestly say that I feel uncomfortable being forced to listen to religious pundit views and exclamations - I have to listen to my President mention it during each State of the Union which irks me because he is the voice of our nation, and our nation is not 100% Christian. In addition it's printed on my dollar bills, and I was forced to memorize religious-bearing songs all throughout (public) primary and secondary school, regardless of my faith (or lack thereof). It has made me uncomfortable on many occasions - and I'm sure I'm not the only one. But you know - this is a speech, not a dollar bill. She's not speaking for our entire country - she's speaking for herself, of her inspiration - her journey. She earned that spot as valedictorian, and rightly so.
Religious referencing is a completely different animal that outright proselytizing...and we do have the matter of our first amendment to consider. In her quotes from the article, she doesn't mention wanting to convert anybody - simply that she wants to "Thank her lord and savior". So be it. Without reading the unedited speech, I think it's impossible to make a clear assumption about her agenda and it's not our place to do so. A part of my being considers this girl may have been abusing her power as the commencement speaker and if they had not pulled the speech, there would have been a nice law suit. However, this was a graduation commencement, not a dissemination on world views or a seminar on the specific ethics the school itself follows. Like Eire graciously says, she was talking about her inspiration, which just happens to be God.
The nicest thing about this, in my opinion, is the fact that we have the freedom to argue it. Personally, I'd rather have my first amendment than not have it.
With that...this discussion has caused great controversy in my head about whether or not I want to be involved in the public school system on a level I am heading to do so within educational administration and reform...I think there will be a point in public education very soon where censorship laws will overlap our first amendment rights, and that makes me tremble a bit.
The (original) authors and redactors of the U.S. Constitution will turn over in their graves eventually, I'm sure of it.
P.S...bb - I LOVE Liz Phair!!! _________________ "You can't kiss and keep your eyes open, they'll cross forever" - Rubyfruit Jungle
Red,
I respect your opinion and thoughts on this subject and thank you very much for your reply.
While I do not wish to get into any heated argument I do wish to discuss this topic a little further.
You quoted a part of the article that said, “District legal counsel Bill Hoffman said the regulation allows students to talk about religion, but speeches can't cross into the realm of preaching. We review the speeches and tell them they may not proselytize," Hoffman said. "We encourage people to talk about religion and the impact on their lives. But when that discussion crosses over to become proselytizing, then we to tell students they can't do that."
Well…hmmm…in my opinion after reading the unedited speech I don’t think he was very encouraging and it makes me wonder just what he (Hoffman) or the school district do to encourage students to talk about religion. Most likely they do nothing except turn off mics.
What does that word mean anyway hmmm proselytize…
To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
And as a v. tr. it means to convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
I do not see anything in her speech where she is trying to induce anyone to convert to her religion.
I do not see anything where she tried to induce anyone to her political party or to adopt her political party or religion.
And I most certainly do not believe her speech (unedited) was a speech intended to convert anyone
To answer your question about how I would feel if a person read from the Quran, Torah, Holy Bible or the Veda’s of Hinduism or quoted any other religious or spiritual belief. It would not bother me at all because I am comfortable in my own beliefs and comfortable in the fact that we are raising our child to be comfortable in whatever beliefs she grows to accept as an adult. No Christian would consider me a Christian at all.
You do not earn the right of free speech with age and wisdom…every American has that right especially when they are legally considered an adult. I have heard some very old people speak with a great deal of wisdom and some I have heard I thought were just way way over the edge of sanity. I have heard some very young people speak and was amazed at how thoughtful and wise their words were and some I have heard and thought to myself…right before I told them…”you need a little more experience in life because what you said is just plain stupid.” No I do not believe free speech comes with age and wisdom I believe it comes with being a citizen of the United States.
You say that this young woman lacked wisdom in her speech and that it was all about herself.
I think it showed a lot of wisdom and a valedictorian speech is supposed to be about yourself. A valedictorian speech is supposed to be about your own experiences in school and in life. It is suppose to be about what inspired you and made you succeed. Some people believe that a commencement speech should be representative of the class as a whole…if that is the case then from the applause she received (I saw a piece of it on the news) and the comments I have read from many of her classmates then it was representative of the vast majority of her class.
In my opinion…the ones who would do better by being open minded and thoughtful are the ones who try to shut people like her up.
To me this is not about religion…it is about one of the things I believe this country is all about and that is a persons rights under the Constitution of the United States of America. One of those rights deals with a persons right to freely speak no matter what the subject matter is. To me as long as they do it in a respectful way and speak what they honestly believe I have absolutely no problem with it even if I do not believe what that person believes or feel the same way that person feels I will still fight for that persons right to speak.
Here you can read the entire speech she wanted to give. Some may consider it “proselytizing” I think of it as a young woman telling her entire graduating class what changed her life and made her succeed in school and what she believes will help her be a success no matter what.
http://www.therebelution.com/2006/06/full-text-of-brittany-mccombs-speech_24.html
After you read it and think about it for a few minutes I would like to know your thoughts (and this goes for everyone else as well).
Eiregirl
Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:20 am
chordphrute
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane
I'm sleepy/upset/drained (not about this) so bear with me...
Laws, Amendments, Civil Rights and all that aside...although the speech was well-written, I found it imposing. I don't like to be preached to, under any circumstances - and in my opinion - the entire speech (minus the introduction about the blocks) greatly borders, if not rides, on proselytizing.
---insert big rant here---
But again still - setting aside the fact that I, personally, don't like the speech (and because I'm being very contradictory toward myself)..in the big picture I will still say that she has earned her right as Valedictorian to stand on that podium. What she chooses to do with her mic time is up to her and yes, she has the right to sway the first amendment through the air to her heart's desire - and no matter how much I dislike the speech, I certainly wouldn't shut off the microphone.
thank you for sharing the link, Eire. _________________ "You can't kiss and keep your eyes open, they'll cross forever" - Rubyfruit Jungle
Now after you have gotten some sleep, calmed down, re-energized...Tell me how you find it to be bordering or riding on proselytizing.
Hugs,
Eiregirl
Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:50 am
Cavewoman
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2056
Location: nearby
I read the entire speech. While it may not be my cup of tea, its hers. She earned the microphone time. She has "the right" to say what she pleases.
If somebody in the audience didn't like it, they have "the right" to cover their ears, leave the auditorium to pee, go outside to smoke a cigarette (maybe), etc. ... to then return when the applause ended. (Afterall, nobody handcuffed them to their seat, right?... just an assumption.)
Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:30 am
DanceofSorrows
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 2837
Well, after long consideration I feel the school had done the right thing in keeping with standards. It is a school ceremony and there was a clear line drawn between her expressing her feelings and the line of preaching in the statement she was about to make. After all, gay students in schools fought for the right not to have to endure bible verses aimed at them and whether or not she picked a bible verse that had nothing to do with gays doesn't matter, there is a line. Free speech never meant we could just say anything, anywhere at anytime. Even in our chat room we watch our speech, on our boards we have standards that protect the right for all people (not the right for free speech) but the right for dignity and respect, allowing for free speech under those circumstances.
She had a choice and she made it already understanding the consequences. The same system that would protect her from something like a religious hate speech from another student's commencement speech, she rejected. Maybe because it didn't happen or maybe because she is a true proponent of free speech who knows, we didn't see the reverse side of this. Granted, her speech wasn't at all a hate speech and I for one respect her after reading her speech. But the lines are there for a reason in a school function.
I thank you for your reply and respect your opinion.
You and others I have discussed this with have reasonable opinions but one of my points is…where do you draw the line?
In this case the school district drew the line at proselytizing…where in her speech was she trying to convert anyone?
Where was she trying to induce anyone to adopt her religion?
It is just my opinion but where they (the school district) drew the line and where they cut the mic are not even close.
Of course with the freedom of speech or any freedom people should exercise responsibility…you do not yell fire in a crowded theater or restaurant and any responsible person would not have every other word that comes out of their mouth be a curse word around young children. A responsible person would not use their freedom in a malicious way. But as long as a person takes responsibility for what they say, as long as they are respectful of others opinions, as long as they are honest in there opinions then I have no problem whatsoever with what they say. If they were not responsible, respectful or honest with what they say…do they still have the right to say it? Yes they do and we have the right to hold them accountable for it when there is malicious intent.
This girl had absolutely no malicious intent.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” These are some of the most important words in the United States and to me those words clearly say that the United States congress will not make any law that establishes one religion over another and that no law will be made that prohibits anyone to freely exercise their religion, that no law will be made to curtail a persons right to speak or abridge the press and that no law will be made to stop people from peacefully assembling. We can only hope that people will exercise these rights with respect to others and that when they speak they will speak the truth. We can only hope that when people print the words instead of speaking them that they will do so without malice. We can only hope that when people assemble together that they do so peacefully.
People say she was preaching or proselytizing yet she was not telling others what to do or how they should live their lives. Not once did she say her way was the only way. Not once did she damn anyone to hell for not believing what she believes. She only stated what was right for her…what she believes helped her.
It just boggles my mind…what is so wrong with what she said or wanted to say?
What gives one group of people (minority or majority) the right to infringe upon the rights of another group of people?
One of the great things about being able to freely state ones opinion is the fact that it gives others the chance to know what you think and how you feel about things.
For instance…if I am wrong in any of my many opinions of things or in how I feel or think about certain things then how is anyone ever going to be able to show me I am wrong if they have no way of knowing what I think? How would anyone ever be able to show me that my opinion has no basis in truth or fact?
And to push that point a little further…how could they ever state their opinion to show me the error of my ways if they were not allowed to do so?
It is just so blanking sad that people get so blanking offended that a person ends up not being able to exercise one of the very rights this blanking country was founded upon.
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