Joined: 04 Aug 2005
Posts: 25
Location: Long Island, New York
Nature vs. Nurture.
I don't mean to rock the boat or anything, but I've been up all night, as usual. About the same time that I start twitching from sleep deprivation is the same time my thoughts get the heaviest.
I was just contemplating the Nature vs Nurture theory on homosexuality, and I wanted anybody's take on it. I have decided to major in psychology, so obviously I am just generally interested in these sorts of things.
Anyway, I take a good look at my own life. Daughter of divorced parents. Mother is an extremely successful independent stubborn women. Father is an equally independent and stubborn man with a superiority complex. I have grown up in a female dominant family. The women are the thinkers and leaders of the household. To boot, I have rarely heard a positive statement spoken of my father from my mother's family. I have no connection with my father's family. Basically, I have grown up somewhat trained to resent my father, along with most men in the world. I don't dislike men...at least I don't think so.
Then I reason that even before my parents separated(I was about 3) I was always rough around the edges. I would play fight my father and when surrounded by my male cousins would join the wrestling matches. This continued with my male friends up until puberty. I was a tomboy through and through. I hated Barbie, yet liked taking her clothes off.
I remember specifically admiring a woman in a hair salon when I was about five and thinking that she was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen. She reminded me of Belle from Beauty and the Beast. I desperately wanted for her to notice me. I didn't know why of course.
This all makes me wonder if I would have been a lesbian even if my parents had had a normal relationship during my developmental stages. Maybe I would have been a straight tomboy. I really don't know. I don't regret myself. If someone told me that the only reason I like chocolate is because I had too much of it as a child...I don't think that would make me want to stop eating chocolate. I
like
chocolate. I
like
girls.
Well, on a whole I have noticed that a lot of gays and lesbians come from divorced parents, or somewhat disfunctional households. Many people seem to accept that a (straight) woman that seeks out older sexual partners is looking for the "Daddy's love" that she might not have received as a child. Maybe seeing strong women made them more desirable than the men that could have been stronger.
This is a lot longer than I thought it would be. Sorry!
I just want to hear what anyone else thinks about the theory and maybe even about how you grew up. I don't want is to seem like I'm saying because you had a bad home life that's why you are a lesbian. I think lesbians are top notch! There should be more of us! I'm just really really curious about the how's and why's of things. Maybe I think too much. _________________ I try to discover
A little something to make me sweeter
Oh baby refrain from breaking my heart
I’m so in love with you
I’ll be forever blue
That you give me no reason
Why you’re making me work so hard
Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:54 pm
Phoenix Moderators
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 1664
Location: Tallahassee Florida
Hi Xina,
I think there are a lot of factors in why some women are lesbians. Some just always were attracted to females. I never bonded with males, my father and I were never close, though my stepfather was a very kind and good man. I was also sexually abused, not by a family member, on several occaisions. I too was a tomboy through and through. I did everything better than boys, and won everything. I competed in sports and was a top athlete. I dated boys, had boyfriends and eventually married because I thought that was what I wanted to do, and I was very involved in the church. I still never fit in. I was asked many times if I was a lesbian and I'd stick my head in the sand and say "nope".
8 years of marriage, 4 children, and I was miserable. He was a misogynistic jerk and I fought his control tactics constantly, but I walked on egg shells to keep the peace. I finally admitted I was bi-sexual in chat with a woman I was very close to, who ended up being my first g/f.
I think it has to do with a lot of factors in what makes us comfortable and attracts us to others. My sister is straight. She grew up in the same environment, and she was always a girly girl. She loved barbies, I would drown em, and use them as targets for my guns and battlefields. I hated dressed, lace, pink, anything girly. It was sheer torture getting me in a gunnysac dress for a friends wedding and right after it, I was outside with the boys, still wearing that damn dress, but playing baseball.
I am more in touch with my feminine side now, and I enjoy being femme. I still don't like overly girly dresses or lace on them, but I do like femme undergarments, make-up, and my long hair. I don't know the answer, but for me I think I was always bent a different way, very independent, and I have a lot of "masculine" characteristics.
Good question though,
brat _________________ "A little work won't hurt you bad, but just in case I'm wrong, you'll be smiling when they pronounce you dead." Amanda Marshall 'This could take all night
Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:27 pm
Bobby Mcgee
Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 382
Location: The Buckle Of the Bible Belt
Xina, my short response to this is, there is some really interesting research about female likes and dislikes being linked to the progesterone levels in the womb during gestation. If I can remember where I saw it I will send it your way. My long response will have to come at a different time.
B. _________________ "If you want to see the rainbow, you are going to have to deal with the rain" Dolly Parton
Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:08 pm
JellyBean
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 26
Location: UK, Midlands
Xina,
I can only tell you the way things have been for me! I grew up in a happy household. I have two younger sisters and a brother. I was always a tomboy through and through. I got married and had two children. I am now an out in the open lesbian, loud and proud. divorcing and happy. My family are perfectly aware and supportive. My parents had their dissagreemnts i am sure when we were children and growing up, but we rarely seen them. I am the oldest of four. My youngest sibling is 18. My parents are still very happily married and i am sure they will continue to be. they have been together for almost thirty years. I don't resent my mother or father for anything and i love them both dearly. all of my siblings feel this way. I certainly feel that how i was brought up has nothing to do with the fact that I LOVE WOMEN. Its just the way i am and i am quite sure i was born that way!!! Hope all goes well with ur study.
Jelly. _________________ LOVE - 99% pain, 1% exquisite joy !!!
Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:11 pm
Kira
Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 27
Location: Canada
Hi Xina
As Brat says of her own case, very different people can emerge within a given external environment; internal environments, which are harder to see, might be quite different. As for nature versus nurture, I think that dilemma is less a reflection of the world than it is a function of presuming a binary to begin with; it asks which of two things by first presuming exactly two things. And not just two, but two that are conceived as an opposition. Is the world really so neat and tidy?
One problem with the opposition is that setting nurture as one pole supposes, as its opposite, that something not nurtured is possible, that there are parts of us that do not depend in any way on existing in a social context--would turn out exactly the same no matter what. But how, other than in social contexts, can something possibly exist or persist? And what element in the real world is actually not affected by anything else? An a-social existence, at the very least, is completely untestable and unknowable by a social being; even to hypothesize about the idea is somehow to "socialize" it.
In my case, who's to say what different parents, friends, experiences etc. might have produced. But I thought about girls pretty early on, and the one trial boyfriend I had (if two weeks of hand holding and occasional pecking warrant the term) only confirmed what I already knew. Hard-case parents or friends might have made it harder to come out but wouldn't have changed what I felt about myself. But I don't see what is gained by requiring a decision about absolute nature or nurture. It seems more revealing to imagine the contrast as two ends of a spectrum that runs from "more resistant to change" on one end to "easily influenced" on the other, and then to look in detail at what forms resistance and influence take in particular cases. Reverting to an absolute dichotomy would erase all that potential detail, the stuff that would help you really know a person.
One other bit from my own experience. I barely started to date a fellow classmate last year. Magnetic glances soon had us talking after class, and pretty soon thinking of more. We both knew what we were feeling and who we were. The problem was, she was from Korea, a place where, it turns out, "lesbian" isn't even a legitimate category, let alone a stigmatized one. If she were to choose a relationship with me and have it discovered (and neither of us were willing to go into hiding), she would have had no place left to go but out of Korea. I figured I lived some version of it, but in truth I didn't even know what stigma was till then. This, too, pulls the rug out from under the nature/nurture dichotomy. Forced into the terms of that distinction, one would have to say she was really lesbian inside—it's hard to imagine anything in her external environment pushing her in that direction. And yet, the irreducibly social basis of identity is what made her inner identity impossible to realize. No easy thing, especially for her, but again, real life is not so neat and tidy.
Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:16 am
fortheloveofagood... Site Admin
Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Posts: 2216
Location: loves land of plenty
hi,
i did psychology and sociology at uni and i personally came to the conclusion that psychology is severly limited in its ability to provide a theoretical basis for understanding sexuality, even feminist stuff on the issue, it was all too essentialistic and looks primarily at the individual. Always comparing homosexuality against the norm, heterosexuality (from what i read!) I prefer to look at writier such as Tamsin Wilton, (the ins and out of lesbian sex, sexual (dis) orientation, she looks at deconstructing heterosexuality, lesbianism, gender, in order to understand how those concepts work in society and how this informs how we understand these concepts. This asks different questions about sexuality, questions the idea of heterosexuality (often taken as a given!) and sexual desire.
oh and watch out for developmental theory in psych' too, lol, it based on the premise that children are becomings, and adults are beings, when in, my opinion, we are always both, in a state of being and developing too. It does not end in adult, children are not deficient, they are only theorised as so. (As i say in my opinion)
'don't hate your enemies, it clouds your judgement'
~peace comes from knowing only love is real~
Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:57 pm
Sobu-Milkwo
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 61
Location: All over the world
My two cents worth, with no guarantee about the facts
Interesting topic this one and I thought I might add my two cents worth. I can't guarantee though that I have got the facts right, because my memory is quite vague on what I read a long time ago, and I can't tell the difference between what I read and my personal interpretation of it. So apologies for the inaccuracies. Freudians might cut my head off if I got it wrong, but I'll risk it anyway !
The butch lesbian can supposedly be explained as being stuck in/having regressed to the 'pre-oedipal masculine phase', when the infant baby girl looked upon her mom as a sexual object and didn't grow out of it like heterosexual baby girls do. (I suppose the vast majority of male babies remain forever stuck in that stage, either being mother-stuck or more frequently looking for the mother in a partner.) A study apparently showed that erotic mom-baby games were quite common among lesbians, confirming the pre-oedipal masculine phase theory. I have no data on it, nor have I read about it elsewhere. I'm sure there are others here who can shed more light on this theory, even if by refuting it. The theory still doesn't give any explanation for femmes. Is the femme taking on a mother role? Is it regression, if so, what kind of regression is it? Another theory is that when a normal heterosexual sexual relationship/bonding has been frustrated, then homosexual love and bonding serves as a compensation. Then there is the 'anima' 'animus' theory, that we all have both masculine and feminine aspects to our psyche, and culturally we supposedly develop one aspect more than the other and when cultural inhibitions are removed, homosexuality or bisexuality manifests itself.
Any takes on the theories?
My own additional thoughts since I first posted it.
Summary:
1. The pre-oedipal masculine phase theory explains the butch, but not the femme lesbian, nor does it explain lesbian lovers who do not necessary play the erotic mama-baby game. But that is an adult male theory, thought up by a heterosexual male, probably a projection of the role a female breast plays in hetero male sexuality. No infant has been able to tell us whether it considers the mother's breast as a sexual object. Women should be able to confirm whether breast feeding a baby is a pleasant experience of motherhood, which may be erotic at most but probably not sexual.
2. Some lesbians have a history of sexual abuse as children and abuse in marriages to male partners, which offers partial explanation for the compensation theory, and yet not every female child or adult woman who is abused chooses a lesbian bond as compensation. Situational lesbians are found in jails and convents, or so I'm told. Yet not everyone who has the opportunity to experiment sexually with a person of the same sex does so, nor does everyone deprived of heterosexual sex resort automatically to homosexuality to satisfy an unfulfilled need. On the other hand, there are plenty of extremely attractive lesbians who choose women although they could have any man they wanted.
3. 'Anima' 'Animus' theory does not take into consideration the role of the physical body and the hormones. It is a fact that homosexual partners cannot propogate. Biologically there is a need for a member of the opposite sex. Even if all cultural barriers were removed, most heterosexuals would remain heterosexuals. So I would say that there is a physical and hormonal sexuality and a psychic sexuality. For most women, the two are in harmony, but for others the physical and hormonal sexuality is female but the psychic sexuality shows a variation. Removal of cultural inhibitions does make it easier to live out the 'anima' and 'animus' sides of the psyche in a sexual way. Creative people seem to break through the boundaries of the cultural conditioning more often than others. Nurture makes a small contribution, but as mentioned earier in the thread, it does not explain those who have felt attracted to the same sex from a young age, and other women exposed to the same environmental factors have remained heterosexual. Heterosexual tomboy women are responding differently to nurture.
Oh, I'm getting a headache trying to think this thing through any further.
The bottom line in my opinion, is that one will never have all the answers. One can live a perfectly content and meaningful life without them. It is about accepting one's own life as it is, one's sexual preferences and conflicts about coming to terms with it, and living life to the best of one's ability, without trying to label oneself or fit oneself into categories. Developing the capacity for real love, integrity in relationships, and lifelong bonding is what counts, not the sex of the physical body that the person whom one loves is housed in. One can think up hypotheses, but it is dangerous to fit everyone into a general hypothesis. It is far better to work out an individual hypothesis for every single person. The hypothesis 'We don't really know' is the only one that fits all persons, and saves everyone a headache and gives each one an opportunity to get on with other things in life. Those who take on the headache and mental gymnastics of creating and refuting hypotheses as a profession or hobby should be encouraged to do so. But for ordinary mortals, there is too much living and loving to do in the time that is left on this side of eternity. For those who have fears about God, and His punishment, the fear should be more about not having loved anyone, rather than not having loved a person according to social norms, or in the right body. It goes without saying, that whether in a homosexual or heterosexual relationship, the moral command that one should never hurt anyone, take unfair advantage, exploit or covet another person's 'wife' holds. As for the rest, we can never know what God's stand on homosexuality is and how He is going to deal with human souls after death, including adulterers in heterosexual relationships. Those who profess to know God's judgement in these matters, are merely expressing their view of God, which is more likely their own projection of God, or the God they have created in their own image and likeness. But one thing we do know for certain is that God is a God of love (and by love I do not mean sex, although sex is an integral part of a partnership), and therefore real love can come from God alone. May all homosexuals be 'guilty' of real love in God's sight! .
Sobu _________________ Life is what we make of it. The power to shape our destiny with the choices we make is the greatest power we human beings have been endowed with - from God. May we let go of the past and create our lives anew every single day.
Last edited by Sobu-Milkwo on Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:12 pm; edited 3 times in total
Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:56 pm
aussiechick
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Australia
Hi all
I can only comment on myself I come from a fairly happy home I got alot of love and attention eventhough my parents worked hard long hours. But I was sexually abused by a female when I was 8 but I dont think that has anything to do with it because I knew I was gay when I was around 5 well i didnt know I was gay as such but I knew I was different to other girls.
also I was watching 60 mins the other night and they were showing twins were one was gay and the other wasnt so if they share the same genes received the same up bringing what would make one gay and one straight?
Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:46 am
lostgrl913
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 153
Location: PA
my little bit of input:
i happen to know a set of idnetical twins that one is gay and buch and the other is stright and very femme. so that really shoots the whole aurgment to hell.
i did reasearch on this for a psych class and there are many theries out there as to what makes our sexuality what it is. but really i think a big problem is they base everything on gender and as i see it gender is not as set a thing as some want to believe.
after hours of reasearch and talking to quite a few people i have come to a few conculsions. and they are this:
1) gender is not a rigid thing. to many of us were "forced" into a gender role. ie. your a girls you must like dolls, cooking, you know "girly" things. i never adheared to this. i have alwasy been a tomboy. hated dolls, hated dresses, and was never girly. there are also transexuals. and we know that its not only MTF but also FTM's out there. and lesbians and gay men who love them.
2) sexuality is fluid as well. because gender is not set in stone neither is your sexuality. i have known women who have been lesbians who fell for a guy. and i dont think this makes them any less of a lesbian. same with a few gay men i have known.
3) transgenderism. now what if the person who you fell in love with decided a few years down the road to transgender? does that make you any less of a lesbian because your g/f is thinking about becoming an man? could you live with her/him if he decided to do it?
really i dont believe it is just nature or nuture but a combination of both and alot of other influences in our lives. i am also thinking that this might not make total sense so i will revisit this when i am more awake. _________________ i am rage, i am sorrow and grief
all alone in my way
i know humor and heartbreak
and people are life
if i keep my eyes closed
i'll be open to strife
-Ferron STAND UP
Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:07 am
Sobu-Milkwo
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 61
Location: All over the world
Auchick, robbed of your childhood, my heart goes out to you!
Hi Aussiechick
My heart goes out to you when I read how you were robbed of your innocence and childhood at eight, and that too by a woman! Only ten percent of pedophiles are supposedly women. You seem to be sure that you were a lesbian at five and your sexual abuse might not have influenced your orientation in anyway. I would not believe that hypothesis without reservations. I'll repeat here what everyone knows: There is a good reason why pedophiles are locked away, and why even serial killers in jails (I'm told) feel morally superior to them. There is nothing more criminal than robbing a child of innocence and their childhood. Pedophilia is not a crime of passion. It is a cold calculated destruction of an innocent life for the perverse satisfaction of an adult. Pedophilia is accompanied by brainwashing, where the child is made to feel guilty for the crime, and that is why it is so cowardly and demonic.
Children have a charm which may be interpreted as erotic, but it definitely is not sexual. The sexual hormone released at puberty does have a biological role. Only a sick mind interprets the innocent erotic charm of a child before puberly as sexual. A child is easily manipulated, especially by those it trusts, that is why sexual abuse is possible. I have difficulty in believing that children who have not reached puberty are aware of their sexual needs or have them if they have not been sexually abused as children.
I know nothing about the statistics of lesbians who were abused as children. It might be useful for those struggling within themselves to explore the possibility of finding out if it has influenced their ideas of sexuality in anyway. Wallowing in thoughts of childhood sexual abuse, is definitely counterproductive. I admire the women who have been able to forgive themselves for being vulnerable and defenseless as children, and have moved on with their lives, in freedom and with courage to love.
I do agree with others in this thread that homosexuality is multifactorial and all theories are limited in giving a full explanation. I think of the human being as having a spirit, that has no gender and is eternal, a soul that has no gender, but takes on the impressions of the body-emotions-mind experiences and accompanies the spirit at death, a psyche that is the home of instincts but is also conditionable, a mind that is foreever churning out thoughts, that affects the emotions, the emotional side of the brain that is influenced by thoughts and physical sensations and external stimuli, and the body. It is the human spirit, ,beyond the realm of conditioning that can be witness to and rise above the conflicts of the soul-emotions-mind-body. Who can say what role conditioning, the conditioned reflex stemming from childhood or adult experiences, might have played in the development of homosexuality?
I'm getting myself into a knot at this stage, because my explanation is getting far too complicated for me. So I'll stop and let others contribute their two cents and keep the disccusion going.
Sobu _________________ Life is what we make of it. The power to shape our destiny with the choices we make is the greatest power we human beings have been endowed with - from God. May we let go of the past and create our lives anew every single day.
Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:40 pm
aussiechick
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Australia
thanks Sobu-Milkwo
yes I know how rare it is to be abused by a woman in that way Its hard to say to what extent that event has changed my life I have only just started to face up to what went on I havent told a sole yet im not ashamed its just a hard thing to bring up and also I dont remember alot since the day it happend up until a year ago i didnt think about it at all. all I remember is playing in my front garden and a saw a girl go past who I thought was my sisters friend my sister is 10 years older than me i ran behind her shouting her name when she turned around it wasnt her she was about 18 19 she started to chat to me she was very nice told me she had a new puppy I was mad about dogs still am I ran into my house told my mam I was going to see my friends new puppy my mam assumed I ment my friend next door and I ran back outside and went with her to her house she took me into a bedroom and all I remember clearly from then on is a big water bed after that its very hazy I remember crying and a few other things but not much else then she let me see her puppy and I went home and I honestly never thought about it again.
Until last year I was at shopping centre checking out perfumes and I smelt this one and I straight away felt sick to my stomach and dizzy I got all these flash backs I left the store and sat outside and got my self together and went home after that it seemed to just flood back I started having nightmares walking and shouting in my sleep I stopped eating got very depressed I have pulled out of it now I am feeling better I should see someone professional I know but i still sometimes wonder did that happen? how could I not think about it all these years then suddenly its there but I do need to talk it out with someone then eventually I will tell my family.
But I still think I would have been gay no matter what I think that event explains why I am so anxious when I meet new people and my shyness and why my skin would crawl if someone I just met hugged me.
I remember when I was 6 playing kiss chasy at school I ran with the boys and grabed a girl and kissed her on the cheek and she looked so shocked and said no only boys can kiss girls and when I went home I cried and told my mam I want to be Boy and my mam said why the only thing a boy can do that a girl cant is pee standing up that was just one of the cases I think points out I was gay long before 8 but maybe I am wrong its a pretty complicated issue.
Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:06 am
Sobu-Milkwo
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 61
Location: All over the world
You need lots of compassion for yourself!
Hi Aussiechick
Hearing that your trauma has resurfaced makes my heart go out even more.
Imagine a little eight year old girl in your shoes. How do you think she could have dealt with the nightmare? By blocking out memories of course. That is how the psyche sometimes protects the victim. But it works only temporarily. The trauma stays hidden and torments the victim, playing itself out by meting out suffering in completely unrecognisable forms.
What you went through was a psychological and physical assault, loss of innocence and trust, besides sexual exploitation. Of course someone who wants to abuse either uses threats or bribe. In your case the bribe was the offer to show you her dog. But you were asked to fulfil her perverse sexual needs before she would reward you by letting you see her dog. Quite a simple tactic really, but in her case, the incident was not preplanned, but completely opportunistic. There is little benefit for you in trying to figure out why she did what she did or how the little innocent girl that you were could have prevented yourself from believing that a young woman would entice you into her home to use you sexually.
The most important thing you have to tell yourself, a million times, is that there was nothing you could have done to prevent being betrayed in that fashion.
You must forgive yourself a million times for trusting her. Remember, you could not have done otherwise. An eight year old little girl is not expected to know that a young woman was inviting her to abuse her sexually as reward for being shown a dog. Your mother didn't suspect it. Even eighty year old women wouldn't have such wisdom.
All you need to focus on is how it is affecting you now and deal with that.
Once you have developed enough compassion for the little girl that you were, who went through a trauma, you will be able to face it better. Remember too that you are not an eight year old girl now. So it is the woman that you are now who has to face that little girl in your memory to comfort her. It is normal for the eight year old to surface when the memories come flooding back. So it is important to remain conscious that the eight year old girl is the memory, not the person you are now.
The next step is to remember that the past is only a memory. The past , no matter how terrible, cannot hurt you now. You have a wound yes, but the wound can be healed if you face it with courage, without becoming its victim. The healing will leave a scar, but a scar that can be lived with. There is nothing you can do about the past. You cannot undo it. But you can stop it from ruling your present from behind. So bring it before your eyes. Say yes, yes to the pain and betrayal.
No one on earth can restore your childhood and lost innocence. That is a pain you must come to terms with and live with. But it is up to you not to let it ruin your present. Use the pain and make a pearl out of it. That is the challenge and the task.
Taking revenge on that young woman may not give you the satisfaction you seek. It is upto you to decide if you are willing to take on the terrible retraumatising that is involved when the whole thing is churned up. And the frustrating thing about convicting pedophiles is finding enough evidence to nail them and send them to jail. If one doesn't have it, then the whole exercise will have been in vain.
The urgent thing is to deal with the effect the past experience is having on you now. When you seek help, remember to get a really, really good therapist. Not every therapist is good and sensitive or suited. Mutual rapport is vital to the healing process. Feel free to move to the next therapist if the one you first went to isn't helping, or you don't feel understood and helped.
Do your homework to speed up the process. Write down all you can remember. Over and over again if necessary. Forgive the eight year old girl that you were over and over again. Assure her that you are an older woman now and no longer an eight year old. Let the eight year old find comfort and security in the woman you are now. Assure her of your protection and care.
Do things to improve your life now, actively. Everything possible for your body, mind, emotions and spirit. Proactive self-nurturing is your best guarantee that the past is not ruling your life now. Abused children tend to become self-destructive in the choices they make, because deep down they do not believe they are worthy of love and care. That is what you have to watch out for and act against it. Taking care of yourself is your first duty.
Remember that absolutely no one, not the therapist, not the persons who love you, can ever make up to you for the past injury. You will have to accept the pain on your own and say goodbye to the childhood you never had. There is no need to disclose the abuse to everyone you know, not even a partner. It is your past. People should accept you as you are now, without having to know every single detail of your past life. That is part of your sacred identity. It is yours alone. Get help from the right sources, yes. But beyond that, it is only your business to know.
Are five year old girls who kiss other girls showing a lesbian streak? I doubt it. Most five year olds don't like to play with boys, simply because boys and girls play different games, more markedly different at that age. Real interest in the opposite sex (or even the same in a sexual) begins only at puberty when the sex hormones begin to play a role. It is hypothesised that during puberty, it is not uncommon for even heterosexual girls to explore their sexuality in different ways, which could include lesbian curiosity.
So don't read too much into your kissing a little girl when you were five. But who knows you are projecting your experience as an eight year old into that five year old. The terrible thing that sexual abuse of a child does is that it breaks a biological barrier in an irreversible fashion. It is estimated that 75% of pedophiles were abused as children. The interesting twist to that statistics is that 75% of abused children do NOT become pedophiles. So becoming a pedophile is not an inevitable consequence of being sexually abused as a child. But it does contribute in that a biological barrier was broken and the pedophile has no conscious inkling about it.
I wish you great discernment in the days and weeks ahead. Don't ever think that talking about the trauma to as many people and as often as possible is the cure. Choose very carefully to whom to will disclose such a deep wound. Let the person be worthy of your trust and be sensitive to your needs. Also don't wallow in it forever, which is the drawback of self-help groups, and even to a limited extent of psychoanalysis. I would recommend cognitive behavioural therapy and gestalt therapy. Take your time to work with and work through the trauma, but always keep the end in sight. The trauma work will end and it should end. But do not set a time frame on it. It may heal quickly, it may take a little more time. Take your time. Do not rush it, do not wallow in it. Stay in touch with your deepest self, which will give a clear indication when you are ready to let go and move on. Keep actively working on self-nurture, and keep your eyes fixed on the present and on the future, so that the process of healing is speeded up.
There are two books I could recommend: 1. Already mentioned elsewhere on this website by me: 'Letting go of the person you used to be' by Lama Surya Das 2. 'Eight weeks to optimum health' by Andrew Weil.
Best wishes on your journey towards healing. Growth is lifelong process, it does not end with healing. So I wish you a lifetime of growth.
My compassion is always with you. I'm sure you will find wonderful women on this website to give you a little helping hand or even make the healing journey together because they have been through a similar experience.
Sobu _________________ Life is what we make of it. The power to shape our destiny with the choices we make is the greatest power we human beings have been endowed with - from God. May we let go of the past and create our lives anew every single day.
Tue Sep 05, 2006 4:14 am
aussiechick
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Australia
thanks for your kind advice Sobu
your right there was nothing at that age that would have made me think I was in any danger from that woman so I dont really blame myself in anyway as for revenge its pretty much impossible I dont know the womans name I dont even remember the house that well so I dont think police etc is an option for me. even if it was I dont think I would go down that road now anyway I saw a therapist this morning it was great to talk about it she has put me on zoloft she said to get me over the hump she said the fact that I do boxing as a cardio work out was also very good for me I will be seeing her once a week for the time being.
I also confided in my girlfriend about it she was fantastic as I knew she would be it was nice to really cry and have someone hold me I have thought about the rest of my family and decided not to tell them just because I dont want to hurt them and have them feel any guilt.I will check those book that you mentioned also.
as for the even making me gay or not I guess is a non issue now If it did cause it then I suppose I should see it as a positive that has come from it because through being gay I have made some amazing friends and I have a girlfriend that I adore and I love to pieces and I am proud of my sexuallity so if it was caused by abuse or not dosent matter to me.thanks again for your kind advise
aussie
Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:47 am
Sobu-Milkwo
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 61
Location: All over the world
Wonderful news!
Hi Aussie
Lovely to hear that you are actively tackling your problem by going to a medic, and confiding in the person you felt safest with. It is comforting to know you got the response you needed, namely the understanding and the hug when you felt the freedom to cry. I agree fully with your choice not to tell your family, and consider it wise as well. Your mother sounds like a wonderful person, how she tackled your wish to be a boy when you were six. But you are a grown up woman now and living an independent life. If you are getting the help and support you need to deal with your pain from elsewhere, there is no need to trouble your mom or anyone else in the family, even if you can count on their undying support.
It is important that it is clear in your mind that you would not go down the path of police, even if you could. At least you don’t have to deal with thoughts of and frustration about unfulfilled revenge. That leaves you with more creative energy to deal with your life. Not that meting out punishment to a pedophile, and locking them away so that no more children can be destroyed, is not a good thing to do. Stopping evil is the same as doing good. Pedophilia aside, where people usually go wrong is in their definition of evil, and their laziness to do the good they can, for which there is plenty of opportunity if one will only open one’s eyes.
Your therapist is a medical doctor, either a GP or psychiatrist. It is good that you have found the emergency help you need with allopathic medication. When you feel ready to wean yourself from Zoloft, but feel you could still do with some medical support, you could try something milder, herbal, like St John’s Wort. It can be bought without prescription in health food stores or other specialised stores. Get a high dose, good quality preparation. It takes about four weeks for the effect to kick in, (which is why it is not useful as an emergency medication), but there is no danger of side effects or addiction, as most allopathic preparations have. You can use St John’s Wort for several months without any worry. It works quite well in mild to moderate depression. There are two herbal teas you could drink to increase the effect of getting you to calm down – balm and hops. Of course, it helps to cut down on coffee and caffeinated soft drinks, and not to drink any alcohol to deal with pain. If you can manage to get good quality, good tasting balm tea, it makes for a wonderful evening drink, to drink with evening meal and before bedtime. You could drink it for the rest of your life. Other natural remedies to calm you down, is full body oil massage with either sesame or olive oil. Since you have a loving and supportive partner, you could use the oil massage routine on each other. Get a good book on massage and learn the technique, attending a few classes offered at community colleges or massage schools if necessary. Unlike massage with expensive aroma therapy oils which are used in small quantities, you can use generous quantities of sesame or olive oil (start massage after taking a shower) and wipe off or wash off excess oil after the massage.
If the medical doctor you are now consulting is not specialised in cognitive behavioural therapy, you might consider going to one, after the emergency phase is over, or whenever you feel that you need more time or whatever it is than what the medical doctor is offering you. Clinical psychologists specialised in CBT are good ones to look for. You could consider the resurfacing of your old wound as a blessing in disguise, for it now gives you a chance to deal with it, and to use it as spring board for examining your whole life and setting out on a whole new lifelong adventure of healing and growth. Regular and intense journaling is a wonderful thing, and never underestimate the healing power of it. Recording events as facts (who, what, when, how and why if possible), and then recording your thoughts and feelings associated with the event (thoughts and feelings may seem indistinguishable at first,but the fact is that they are different, although they may seem to occur at the same time. Thoughts can be changed, but feelings cannot. However feelings can be influenced by changing the thoughts), will give you immense clarity in your life. Emotions associated with an event is the personal interpretation of it. The level of development of the psyche at the time of the event, the knowledge, available to the psyche, and ingrained thought patterns, all influence the emotions. Healing of the past takes place when the torch of today's maturity and knowledge it focussed on the emotional interpretation of yesterday's events based on yesterday's maturity and knowledge. Issues you never thought existed will emerge and resolve itself without you realising it. Your life direction and purpose might begin to change in ways you never expected. It is work that does not require an external person. It can be done in conjunction with whatever therapy you are doing. No matter how highly qualified, the person who offers you psychological help is limited by their own biographies and conditioning and the school of therapy they are trained in. The human mind is far too complex, and so unique in every human being, for any school of psychology to grasp it fully. So while it is good to get objective feedback about your problems, they can never be a substitute for your own internal work. The best therapist in the world cannot do your internal work. Their role is to collaborate with you and support you in your own work, giving advice and suggestions based on their objective observations. Their training and their observance of other patients with similar problems gives them a great advantage. Every human mind has the capacity for self-reflection and self-correction. That is the part of your mind that you will begin to tap into once the healing process gets under way, and you need to tap into it and develop it for the rest of your life. Focus on health continuously, and doing things that makes you happy and keeps you developing all areas of your life . The old schools concentrated too much on sickness, that the healed person fell into a vacuum when the sickness was healed. Andrew Weil’s book is a terrific one, that gives you a step by step to-do list. You can adapt it to your own needs and expand on it as you like, with ideas from other books. But the important thing is first to get his carefully worked plan with little variation, as a habit firmly in place before experimenting with changes. Lama Surya Das’ book deals with the grieving process in a wonderful way, without offering any instant remedy like the gurus of the positive (fantasy) thinking schools do.
First Aid for panic attack
: 1. Shift focus to your body consciously as quickly as possible. 2. Become aware of your body, and try to get yourself to breathe consciously and slow the pace of breathing. (Might be difficult to do immediately but will become easier as you practice the technique and get more control.) Concentrate on the point just a hand's breadth below your navel and breathe with your stomach like babies do. Place the palm of your hand just below the navel to make it easier, and feel it rise and fall as your breath goes in and out. Imagine your stomach as a balloon that you are blowing into and slowly releasing the air. 3. The panic attack lasts only for a few minutes. Once the acute phase has passed, and you have a little more time and clarity, you might like to invest time in trying to discover the trigger. 4. When you are ready and stronger, work on desensitisation if applicable. For instance if you can identify the perfume that triggered off the attack, buy it, and smell it when you are in a safe environment and with a person with whom you feel safe. Let your reaction to the perfume kick in and deal with the emotions that it triggers off. Deal with the thoughts that triggers of that emotional reaction, and unmask the myth of the perfume itself. Perfume is just a perfume. It is the association that is triggering the panic. The trick is to break the conditioned response to the smell of the perfume. Remember Pavlov's dogs? Human beings can uncondition themselves, if they are aware of the conditioning and work against it. That is what the behavioural component of CBT is about. The cognitive element is about identifying the origin and the thought pattern behind the conditioned behaviour.
As for the role your childhood experience might or might not have had on you becoming a lesbian – the important thing is how you feel about it now. If you feel comfortable, well adjusted and happy being a lesbian, that is all that matters. As for friends, you would have made friends even if you were a heterosexual woman. Your sexual orientation has nothing to do with your capacity to make friends.
All the best once again and be kind to yourself and others always.
Sobu _________________ Life is what we make of it. The power to shape our destiny with the choices we make is the greatest power we human beings have been endowed with - from God. May we let go of the past and create our lives anew every single day.
Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:30 am
aussiechick
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Australia
Hi Sobu
Thanks again for your helpful advice I really appreciate it. I know its going to be a long road but I have some great support so I will be fine your right I do have an amazing mother actually I have a fantastic family my comments about my friends I did not mean that I only have friends because I am gay I meant I have met some great people through the gay & lesbian community people I may not have met If I was straight I think when you have had a bad experience you have to take as much positive out of it as possible I don’t want to be a bitter person I have been very lucky in so many other ways so I will not be dwelling on one terrible incident and letting that spoil all that’s good in my life.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Gallery
FAQ
Profile PM's 
I desperately wanted for her to notice me. I didn't know why of course.
!
.
