Hi all, I haven't posted on the site for ages it's been so long that I think last time I posted I was still in a straight relationship and posting for advice.
I have been with my girlfriend for year and we live together with my two children. I can cope fine with out right homophobia because I expect that and find it amusing if I'm in the right frame of mind, those people are just scared of difference but at least they acknowkedge it. Just recently a couple of people I've known for a long time who are pc enough to be 'accepting' lol have slipped things out which have hurt more than anything outrightly homophobic anyone has ever said. Their comments hinted that they don't see my relationship with a woman as equivalent to their own with men, it was all about wording so they didn't realise when they decided to open their mouths that they would be saying anything offensive. As an example one persons comment was in a conversation where she was jokingly trying to peruade me to ask my girlfriend a favour and manipulate her (like she would her boyfriend) and she said "...like in a real relationship."
It kind of feels worse than someone saying they don't think it's right for two women to be in a relationship, because at least people who say that are getting angry at what they believe is a relationship that's happening as opposed to just two people playing at it! I feel sooo patronised arrrgh, it's like they can be ok about it because they don't really believe it's the same so there's nothing to get worked up about
I also heard one of them talking about someone else they know who was in a straight relationship and is now with a woman but who they believe is just stringing the woman along. They were saying how it wasn't fair because she's never thought about women before and this woman she's now with has always been gay... which got me thinking - do they think that I have not always been gay? And the idea of them thinking that that hurts, that they might think I'm trying this on for size, that they mightb think I'm just fed up with men!
They've not asked me about my orientation, I was in a straight relationship from the age of 15 to 29 and coming out has been the most difficult decision and process of my life especially with two children, I never had a chance to decide who I was or how I felt about anything before I was stuck in a serious relationship and the length of that relationship, plus children plus both our families made it all the more difficult, so for such an important aspect of myself to be belittled is really hurting. _________________ Sometimes it's the things that scare us the most that get us to the place where we're most safe.
Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:43 am
MysteryGirl Moderators
Joined: 02 Jun 2007
Posts: 3419
Location: I come from a land downunder
I SO understand what you are saying here Enigmatic and I know how much those sorts of comments hurt. I was in a straight relationship for over 30 years, have adult children and just spent a year living with my lady in the USA. I returned to Australia just 3 weeks ago having been forced apart by Immigration laws, and although my immediate family either dont know (or dont want to know) the true nature of my reltionship, some of my friends do and for the most part they have been accepting and sympathetic.
However, like you have found, its the little sideways comments that can really sting, someone I thought was understanding and a good friend, recently said to me something along the lines of "It will be OK, you've had your little fling, it wasnt as if it was a REAL relationship, now you can just settle down and be normal again". OK those werent the exact words but you get the meaning. I felt absolutely devastated that she could think that at my age, with all I had to give up and work thru, that it was so meaningless.
Im sorry you have had to deal with this sort of crap too.
HugZ, Noni _________________ Be yourself.............everybody else is taken!
Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:58 am
Dark prism
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 865
Location: California Dreamin, baby.
I'm very sensitive to those kinds of comments too, probably too sensitive. Sometimes I just let it go and just internally seeth and obsess, but since I've come out, there are more and more times when I take that opportunity to educate. In fact all I usually have to do is to repeat the same words back to them. I just look at them, wait a few seconds, and say "real relationship?" and it is fascinating to see them panic and backpedal as fast as they can and stumble over their words...."Oh....uhhh... I mean....uhhh...well, you know what I mean." LOL
Feeding their own ignorant words back to them, makes them think about it from your point of view, or at least fear they haven't been PC enough. Getting mad at them will not help, but as goodwill ambassadors to our community (the LGBT community) I feel it is our responsibility to help them understand my perceived error in their thinking, and to explain the facts to them so they understand what is right, or at least understand how you feel about it and how what they said may have hurt you.
But also remember, you will never really know what it is like to be black or any other different color or culture and all the different stereotypes and discriminations they may endure, and in the same way, they may never really know what it is like to be gay. As an ambassador of any group though, it is up to us to be a good example and show everyone else we are just like the next guy (or girl) and to educate the people that are open to being educated, especially the people that think they are already totally accepting.
How else can anything change?
((((((((((((((((Noni, Enigmatic))))))))))))))))
Dp
Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:29 pm
cupcakes
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 324
Location: NY
Well said, DP
Also...
People who casually say that gay relationships are not real are jealous, cowardly, and miserable. They're jealous because they've done everything right, the way society, tradition etc told them to and they're still not happy.
Healthy couples, straight or gay, would be encouraging of your relationship.
It's normal and "real" for couples to manipulate each other, lie, cheat...and when one day they realize they've fucked it up, but they're afraid to try what they really want...they'll make these snide remarks at anyone who is brave enough to listen to their own hearts.
THey're just trying to belittle your happiness to make themselves feel better. And using the lowest, most pathetic and also the easiest way out...picking off what they see as easy targets.
It says more about them, than about you. THey need to convince themselves that you're not real so they can keep up their own acts of self deception. But don't let them win. Nothing will disprove them better than for you to be happy and real.
CUppy
Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:47 pm
Hawaiian
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 816
Location: Transplanted to Africa
I understand what the ladies above me have said. Perhaps, it is simple jealousy, pettiness and hate on their part (as cuppie suggests) and not homophobia at all. But, at the risk of stepping far out on a limb, may I gently point out to you that your friends are homophobes? I do agree that it says more about them than you.
There are levels of homophobia:
Repulsion - well, this is the easiest creature to spot. They believe that being gay is a crime against nature. They will get up in your face about it, despite being repulsed.
Pity- People feel sorry for poor gay people. An effort should be made to make us 'normal'.
Tolerance-This type of person feels tolerant of gays, but suggest that the person will 'grow out of it' which sort of implies that we are somehow immature. That the mature option is the het option.
Acceptance-These people will say things like "what you do in your bedroom is your business" or perhaps that "you're not a lesbian to me, you're a human being/my friend/my sister" or "I don't mind gays as long as I don't have to see them flaunting it." Truth is, there's nothing for them to accept. Hets don't ask for acceptance even if what one does in the bedroom is private.
This is perhaps the most insidious of them all, hard to spot. There are small seemingly supportive statements, which still indicate that there's discomfort, unease, and ignorance.
These are your friends or your family. Granted they are not the sort of homophobe that wants to bash your brain in, or blame you for Katrina and the WTC collapse. They are not the sort of homophobe that you want to unleash your anger. Loud and proud and all that...
These are people you love. You love them, perhaps in spite of this, and they love you too, in spite of your sexuality. They have never really been confronted with what is really means that you have a relationship that you wish accorded the same status...if not in the eyes of the law, then at least, in the eyes of your friends and family.
I agree with DP that perhaps a little education is in order...and perhaps you are the person to do it for them. I'm not suggesting that you unleash some gay whoop ass on your supporters. Just gently remind them that, yeah, it is a "real" relationship. Toss in a little joke about how you don't fall in the toilet in the middle of the night 'cause the seat isn't up. Or how it's lovely that you don't have to manipulate your girlfriend.
I've had some long-time friends, who have come a great way from accepting me to supporting me. They came along with me on my journey of discovery and I'm happy that I invested the effort into educating them.
~Hawn _________________ 'A'a i ka hula, e waiho i ka hilahila i ka hale.
Dare to dance, leave your shyness at home.
Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:22 pm
slippers
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 19
Location: Australia
I've had a similar experience recently. A very close friend of mine was telling how she'd explained to her 8yo son that the IDEAL family was a Dad a Mum and children. When I challenged her on this she explained that it was only because she was worried he might grow up to disrespect women, she didn't want him to think it was okay to sleep around and not commit.
I can see her point of view, as a parent you do need to make things simple for your kids sometimes. But at the same time I was deeply offended as I think you can also make a gay or lesbian lifestyle easy for a child to understand. I was annoyed with her for quite a while after this incident and even wondered why I considered her such a good friend.
However, once I'd given it some thought and reflected on the intention and values of my friend, I came to the conclusion that it was ignorance, not malice towards gay & lesbians (or even single people in her scenario), that was the issue. She'd been raised without a father figure herself, she has low self-esteem (therefore holds onto her beliefs all the more defensively) and she truly wants what's best for her children and for me as her friend.
I think it's damaging to assume everyone who hasn't given enough thought to lesbian issues is out to get us. Yes, they're ignorant. But so am I on many issues that don't affect me daily. I would hope that when I come up against a person from a group I don't know much about and accidentally show my ignorance, that they would gently challenge and guide me in the right direction, rather than roll their eyes at me for living with the traditions I know and not understanding the wider perspective.
Sorry to be controversial, but I prefer the person who is at least trying to understand to the one who is so closed-minded they wont even entertain the idea that homosexuality is normal. It does require more of us and will sometimes cause more hurt, because we don't feel we even have to engage with the homophobic person, but I think the outcome can be so much more positive.
Slippers xox
p.s. Noni, if you’d like a little local support here in Australia, feel free to e-mail me. _________________ Oh no, not another learning experience.
Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:47 pm
GreenEyedKiss Moderators
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 682
Location: Barony of the Angels in the Kingdom of Caid.
Very well stated, Slippers. I enjoyed reading your comment very much. _________________ "I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm getting it done." ~ADM
"What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others remains immortal"
Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:42 pm
Dark prism
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 865
Location: California Dreamin, baby.
Impressive response, Slippers, and very well stated. What a perfect way of saying that if we want them to walk in our shoes to understand us, we need to do the same for them, and with a lot of patience.
Dp
Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:54 am
Trisha
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 25
Location: USA
I went through a huge change once when I saw two bearded men kissing in a public park where children were watching with confused looks on their faces as their parents escorted them away from the scene. My own thoughts were to approach them and ask them to please not do that in a public place. I’ve always thought (and still do) that it is disgusting to see two grown men kissing; especially two men with full beards!
Then I suddenly remembered a quote that I read a long time ago that said, “He who denies the freedoms of others do not deserve it for themselves.”
I can’t remember the author and it may have been worded a little differently, but it was something to that effect. Anyway, I never did approach the two men and I just went on about my own business, but that quote prompted me to look a little closer at the way I saw things.
I’ve had run ins with homophobes in the past who’s opinions left me hurting, but at that time, I felt that I was in the wrong because I was the one who was “different” or “abnormal” or that I was doing something that was damning and forbidden by most peoples “standards” or whatever.
So anyway, from then on I’ve decided that it’s only fair for others to have their ideas and opinions about anything they want no matter who they are, as long as they do not discriminate or physically cause harm to anyone, and I will expect the same privilege. If I don’t want to place any value on someone’s opinions, I don’t have to. If I don’t like seeing two men kissing, I can look the other way. If I hear a preacher preaching against homosexuality in his church, I’m NOT going to go and try to sue the church for a “hate crime.” I have no more rights than anyone else, and no one else has any more rights than me.
My relationship with my girl is more meaningful, loving, and runs much deeper than a lot of so called “normal” relationships in my opinion. If some people can’t accept or even acknowledge that two women can have a real and truly loving relationship, then it really is their problem and I’m not going to try and force it down their throats.
Life is too short to worry about what others may think of me. I’m lesbian, I’m real, and I have feelings just like everyone else. Some people need to just get over it!
Trisha.
Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:00 pm
Mairi bheag
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 5094
Location: Scotland
Just something to remember, particularly when someone says something crass to us:
Generally speaking people are not wise; generally speaking people are awkward, not sure precisely they feel about things, and not gifted with sufficient eloquence to express what they mean. And sometimes they are just trying to be honest, or trying to make sense of something, or they make a slip of the tongue without realising it.
God knows, I've said my share of bloody stupid things. I'm gay, and I'm a klutz - that's something I share with all the straight klutzes out there.
Mb
xx
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