I stumbled on this a site of quotes that scared me shitless...here's a small chunk of it:
"Homosexuals are weak, morally sick wretches." - Jesse Helms Sen. R-NC
"Sodomy is a graver sin than murder--Unless there is life there can be no murder."
"AIDS is a racial disease of Jews and Niggers, and fortunately it is wiping out the queers. I guess God hates queers for several reasons...We had lost the fight for the preservation of the white race until God himself intervened in earthly affairs with AIDS to rescue and preserve the white race that he had created.... I praise God all the time for AIDS."
"I would like to outlaw contraception...contraception is disgusting --people using each other for pleasure." - Joseph Scheidler
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."
"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." -Geroge W. Bush
"Not all Muslims may be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." -George Bush sr.
"Do you realize that the only thing that gives democracy existence is sin? The absence of democracy is perfect obedience to god."
last night my friend told me that she prays for me and that god has promised to "take care" of me. She also said that i am not a bad person, but if i have sex with a girl, i will be committing a sin like lying, cheating, and murdering. She said it's not a major offense, but a wrong act.
I asked how she could group them all together when lying, cheating, and murder hurt other people and consensual sex doesn't, in fact it can be about love. then she said something about the value of sex.
we also argued for 2 hrs about evolution/intelligent design, but that's a different story.
How does a girl, raised in NYC, exposed to so much liberalism, still convert and aquire such conservative views (not from her parents)? How does this happen? And she's not the only one. there are so many! all around me.
I want to be grounded and have friends with all different types of views, but I am so frustrated.
I'm finding it harder and harder to stay open-minded.
She is so confident that I will "find the way"...I'm gay and I fucking TEACH evolution!
sry for the ranting.
~cupcakes
Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:01 am
Renee
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 88
How does a girl, raised in NYC, exposed to so much liberalism, still convert and aquire such conservative views (not from her parents)? How does this happen? And she's not the only one. there are so many! all around me.
I have puzzled over this one myself. Two of my sibs are born-again christians. My observations about my sibs is that my bro is an ex-air force dude, and he really loves a lot of structure. My sister never really had to go out and support herself, as she moved directly from my parent's house at the age of 24 into her husband's house. She also needed a lot of structure in her life. They view the bible as a "rule book" for lfe. Perhaps life on it's own seems too meaningless or scary...I wish I knew.
Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:49 pm
Raven
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 1409
Location: Basking in the Garden
CC, I'm sorry - I know how fustrating it can be to argue about the sins of life. I recently came out to one of my friends in the airforce and even over the phone I could tell he was worried and sorry for me. He will still talk and play and be an all around goof with me, but he thinks me being a lesbian is a sin. I will give him that he says he can't say much about me since he has sinned too by having sex before he was married and he views all sins as equal, but I finally had to end discussion with him as I grew tired of explaining something I had grown comfortable with.
I am christian and I am a lesbian and some don't see how that works. Like your sister Renne I have a friend who recently went hardcore christian and view the bible as absolute law. What I like to point out to her - and this is a touchy subject for some - is that the bible has been in man's hands for ages - I mean a common used version is called the King James' Bible. And anyone who know anything about translation know how things are not exact when you translate. I can not be that naive to think that everything that was first written in the bible is what I am reading now today. In fact in chuch I'll be reading and the pastor will be reading and the words wont be the same. The bible is a rule guide and teach you things and tries to set you on the path god wants you but some take it WORD FOR WORD.
~~~This is from the West Wing~~~
It helps show my point in taking the bible WORD FOR WORD instead of as the Word.
A talk show host defends calling homosexuality an "abomination" by saying that that is what the Bible says in Leviticus 18:22 (That verse, by the way, reads: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such thing is an abomination.") This annoys President Bartlet who proceeds to ask a few pointed questions about just what one should accept from the Bible.
"I'm interested in selling my youngest daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleaned the table when it was her turn. What would a good price for her be?"
"My chief of staff, Leo McGarry, insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself or is it okay to call the police?"
"Here's one that's really important cause we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7 If they promise to wear gloves can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame? Can West Point?
"Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my brother, John, for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my mother in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different threads?
"Think about those questions, would you?" _________________ Love is my Salvation and Destruction.
Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:50 pm
SWAY
Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 1560
Location: Upstate NY
See above by Raven, I've been thinking about how to write something with that same train of thought since this has been posted, but the words wouldnt come.
I too have a friend, who is a pastor now, I grew up with him and when I came out to him, this is what he said to me....SWAY, even though you are a sinner, I still love you. Remember what pastor Bob always said, Hate the sin, love the sinner.
I am christian and a lesbian, as Rave said above, but I have conflict still in that area. Working on it day by day, and doing research on it too. Day by day I know that God is love, I am not loved any less by Him or Her, than I was before I decided it was ok to be who I am.
Thanks Rave, for the help chica, I appreciate it, you said what I was trying to put into words.
SWAY _________________ Giving myself to others has made me jaded...
Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:20 pm
NIC
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 141
Location: Brooklyn NY
*gives her love to all the conservative assholes*
_________________
"For those who understand you,No explanation is necessary, for those who don't,none is possible."
Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:22 pm
Phoenix Moderators
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 1664
Location: Tallahassee Florida
The brat studied the bible in Hebrew, Greek and Chaldea for over 15 years. The following are some things that helped me. It is very important to separate the "law" in its precepts and ordinances. Psalm 119 is very good for giving illumination in this. The KJV is an excellent translation to study from if one uses a Strong's concordance to understand what the word really meant. I also use a JP Green's Interlinear Lexicon. Another translation that adds a great deal of understanding the idioms in the New Testament is the "Jewish New Testament". One has to get used to the Hebrew terminology, but once one reads it some it is not hard to do. My favorite translation is called the "Companion Bible" by EW Bullinger, talk about a masterpiece!
Can we pick and choose what we like or dislike from the bible? The Old Testament has been shown to have been translated very carefully word for word by the scribes so much so that if one jot or title were wrong the entire section of that scroll was burned and begun again.
The Dead Sea scrolls verify the accuracy of today's translation of the OT. I think for the Christian it comes down to a matter of faith. Corinthian's clearly shows an abhorrence of homosexuality if one understands the idioms. They did not lay things out easily as in, men don't have sex with men and women don’t have sex with other women. Even in Deuteronomy things get hidden and that is a good lay down of the "LAW". There are denominations today that still teach that to look upon your parents naked is a grave sin because of what happened with Noah and Ham. They say, see, he looked on Noah's nakedness and got cursed.
If one reads in Deuteronomy, to look upon one's fathers nakedness is to have sex with his wife. So, Ham had sex with Noah's wife. I am not a Christian any longer, though i was for many years. I do find it a difficult twist to try to get the bible to ok homosexuality and use certain sections to say it was about "unloving" sex, not homosexuality. For me, the bible does condemn it. I also have a huge problem with the fact that slavery is allowed even in the New Testament. For me, it shows a very clear example of a book written from a societal standpoint and the mores that governed that society. Forced slavery is wrong. Women were property, men ruled, and they decided what was kosher. As for unclean things, it is just smart health practices. If one follows a kosher diet, stays away from dead things, and disease one is healthier. Scavengers clean up the filth and if you eat them you are eating the decayed filth and if you get sick it's your own doing.
Pigs don't sweat, they keep their toxins in the bodies and it is stored in the fat, as with all animals storing impurities in the fat. Remember we are told "The fat is the Lords". It was just a way to keep us from harming ourselves. Good advice given many millennia ago.
I struggled with many issues for a long time, and find the Christian path to be wonderful for those who choose to follow it. The main thing I gained from it is to walk in Love. If you do that, then you are fulfilling the law. There are also many other paths that are equally as loving and respectful of the Divine. I guess my main problem with the Judeo Christian walk is it's masculinization of God/dess. As if God actually has a penis and that makes being male superior and female inferior. The woman is relegated to a subservient roll. I wonder how many Christians who practice D/s and the woman is the Domme have a struggle with that!
I do love that the bible tells us to serve one another, and in that humility this brat has found peace. Spirituality is such a touchy subject. Each of us has to find what works for us. I do not say the above things to shake anyone up. Just sharing what I learned for myself on my quest.
I wish you all well,
the brat _________________ "A little work won't hurt you bad, but just in case I'm wrong, you'll be smiling when they pronounce you dead." Amanda Marshall 'This could take all night
Last edited by Phoenix on Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:49 pm
Sassy63
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 38
Location: Garden City, Missouri
Brat ~ you are a very wise woman and i am amazed when I read your posts. You have shed much light on this subject and I thank you for that....
I spent 10 years in a very conservative independant fundemental baptist church. Taught teen girls Sunday school and did the teen youth group with my ex-husband. The struggles that I had throughout those years and for five years after that were unbelievable to me.
Then last summer, while in another heterosexual marriage that was failing, I met a wonderful woman. The attraction that i had for her was immense, to say the least. I tried to tell myself that we were becoming 'best' friends....but it didn't take long to figure out that most of my struggles throughout my life were due to the fact that I was not where I was supposed to be. I fell in love with her and we have now been together for more than a year. I have never felt so at peace.
And even with the struggles of some friends not accepting and my father not accepting, I am still at peace and feel very fortunate that I have the support of so many in my life, including my mother and my daughter. And the new-found 'family' of lesbian ladies that have weaved their love around us. I am very fortunate.....
Thank you so much for your wisdom in all spiritual issues.....you are a wealth of knowledge and I find myself looking for your wisdom when i am logged on here at Mels.
Sassy _________________ Rogena
"The heart would never have rainbows if the eyes never had tears..." Anonymous
Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:02 pm
HappyLife
Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 9
Location: Houston, TX
Ladies,
I am so impressed by all of your thoughtful responses to Cupcake's post. If you don't mind my adding my two cents, here it is:
My parents taught me from the time I was young and and first noticed women holding hands with women and men holding hands with men that homosexuality should not be an issue one way or another. People fall in love with people, not a gender. This is the same lesson I am teaching my own daughter.
That's it!
Beth
Sun Oct 16, 2005 4:57 am
blissed
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Wiltshire, England
I'm 99% atheist and 1% agnostic. (we can never know everything can we)
I normally tell Christians who are torn about this issue that the bible is a historical document with all it's outdated shortcomings, but it's lasting value is that it invites you to take a leap of faith, and not want for proof that god exists, and take a leap of faith with people, even though you have no evidence of their goodness. Like making the first move to make peace in a war, they may just kill you. So it's about trust, love and compassion. (I can relate to the second part, but I need evidence for divinity.)
Anyway, what I normally tell Christians is, well I ask them if their a man if they could kiss a man, and they say no. Then I say that if you can't just decide to be attracted to the same sex then it's not of your choice. So if you have no choice in the matter it must be the way God made you, and don't you deserve some compassion and respect.
Doesn't usually work though. They usually run to the bible for an answer. Instead of taking it's basic message and applying it to their lives, They use it as the source of all their advice, so they don't have to make the effort to think for themselves.
To be honest I'm 47 now and I'm getting a bit fed up of making the same argument about homosexuality since I was 14, I'm amazed that a lot of people don't get it, when it's so bloody obvious if you think about it for 2 mins. God knows how frustrated I'd be if I was gay.
Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:14 am
cupcakes
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 324
Location: NY
Thank you for all your input. I used to be moderate-liberal in political views, but I think I've finally gone liberal-liberal. I talked to that girl today. We are still friends of course, she's not a nutcase fanatic. In fact, I think we are sort of in the same place. We are both vulnerable, pliable and we are searching for truth. We want role models; we want a little green yoda that we can just absorb wisdom from and be confidant that it's the real deal. We want to take it all in at face value. I hope that we will both sift through what we learn and use our own consciences to figure out what is good advice and what is not for us.
She seeks out her advice from a well-organized institution (church), but I'm probably doing the same thing. example: coming on to this forum, a LESBIAN forum. Am I brainwashing myself by selectively hearing the advice that I want to hear? (hypothetical question, no need for an answer unless you want to)
Anyways. I'm sry if I am contradicting myself or rambling. I put my posts out here for selfish reasons: to relieve my noisy head and to expliot you of your thoughts.
Also, insomniac = pitiful whinner.
Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:09 am
blissed
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 36
Location: Wiltshire, England
You should have put it in the pitiful whining section:), but don't worry, the american talaban aren't coming for you, we're coming for them.
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