Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 1571
Location: Massachusetts
Re: FEEDBACK WANTED? PUT [F] AFTER THE TITLE
quote:Originally posted by Happier Blue:
While there have been many good issues raised here, the problem still remains the same. This is not simply a redundant system but one that lacks any structure and control. The problem is that this system was put into place with the very faulty logic that someone will respond if they see a poem with an [F] after the title. Who??? Certainly anyone who asks for feedback does so with the very real expectation that they will receive feedback. But what mechanism has been put in place to insure this will happen???
Sunny, I do not doubt for a moment your sincerity and desire to continue to grow as a writer. Yes, you received some very good feedback but quite honestly you always receive many comments. But what about the girl who doesn’t??? What about the new members???
I watched two posts in the Sensual/Erotic that both asked for feedback. One was from a new member and after receiving a number of views but no comments, she posted a comment of her own asking again very nicely if someone would provide some kind of advice. This was a total embarrassment and a very poor welcome to a new member.
I have no doubt that the Administrators and Moderators have a great deal going on behind the scenes and I thank them for their efforts. But ... if there is so much going on behind the scenes that they have no time to comment and encourage new writers, why not ask for more help??? I believe this is really a little lame because there are some Moderators who still somehow find time to post their own work, reply to comments and offer comments to their own circle of friends while ignoring everyone else.
I also believe that we denigrate the value and efforts of all of the writers in this community by saying it is not a literary site. It maybe many other things but to the women who post their written work here for everyone to read and share, it is very much a literary site.
Yes, the Poetry for Critique forum is rarely used but it is there for anyone who wants to use it. Maybe it is seldom used because the majority who post do not want their poetry opened to criticism no matter how objective and well intended it may be.
Did anyone think of asking the membership if they wanted a new feedback system, how would it best work and who would be responsible for over-seeing it???
Finally, of all of those who stand here in support of this new feedback system, how many to date have actually taken the time to participate???
~Blue~
Blue,
I don't think it's fair to say that the system was put in place with faulty logic, before giving it a chance to work. I’ve received some feedback to my [F] poems that I don't think I'd have received without the flag or had it been placed in the Feedback Forum. The [F] is also a quick fix to an issue that does not require new coding or any other changes to the site (I do remember portions of the site being down in the past when changes were being made). The [F] is a simple way of indicating a feedback request without typing some sort of note in the text of the post (which as you mentioned some have done). I, for one, must say that if I see an [F], I'm going to be more inclined to provide some more in depth feedback, though I don't feel as if I'm qualified to give too much at this point in my poetry experience. Unless someone indicates in some fashion that they want critique, I refrain. Yes, at times I've left the trite supportive comment, but I'd rather leave that than just pass it by all together, especially if it's a post from a new member.
As for the moderators and administrators (not "facilitators"), I believe they’re doing their jobs quite well. The site is up and thriving (unlike many other poetry sites). We aren't inundated with spam or hate posts, concerns are addressed in a timely fashion and there’s plenty of lively participation. The site is, in good part, member sustained, which it should be at this point in its existence. The civility and support here is unique and unlike that which I've seen on other poetry sites. When moderators/administrators need to intervene, I believe they do in a consistent And timely manner. Yes, there are moderators and administrators who I’ve never heard from, but that doesn’t mean they’ve not made and/or don’t continue to make substantial contributions to the board. Perhaps when we’re all paying monthly membership fees to support the administrative costs, then we’ve got more room to gripe, but as long as this remains a free site, where members can post for whatever their purpose and receive as much support and feedback as they do, I think the admins and mods have succeeded fabulously. Obviously, the members are also doing an incredible job.
I’m still not sure why all the fuss about a [F], and truthfully, I’m not sure why you take such exception to it since you’ve been one of the most supportive folks on this site when it comes to offering feedback when it’s requested. I’ll continue to use [F] from time to time and will make a point of replying to them when I feel qualified to do so. I hope you’ll continue to share your detailed and insightful feedback to requests, even if the request is indicated by an [F]. You’re a gifted poet and a wonderful teacher. This mechanism opens up one more opportunity to members to learn from you and other talented women here at Mels. That’s in part what makes Mels a literary site for some as well as a supportive community woven together by poetry for all.
I have found that most people who post poetry here appreciate having their poetry read and love having their work acknowledged. Shortly after I joined mels I discovered that some people do not want nor do they like any kind of criticism at all publicly but appreciate a PM with some thoughts attached. I have also found that some want critical feedback to the poems they post but never posted in the feedback forum and now with the [F] they have an way of posting in the more used areas of the forum and still have their poem open for critical feedback.
I am one of those people that often leave a “nice write”, “well done”, “that was a lovely write” for several reasons. One being that some people do not care what anyone thinks because they are writing to vent more than anything else but they still enjoy someone acknowledging that their poem was read. Another reason is that I know some replies are not appreciated and perhaps inappropriate I have made one or two of those and made sure that the person knew I was sorry once I knew they did not like what was said. Sometimes I will give a more lengthy comment but I rarely criticize anyone’s work unless it is asked for, posted in the feedback forum or if it has the new [F] attached because when I publicly give criticism (good or bad) it is my own personal opinion and thoughts on what someone has written and I want to know that they really want the type of response that leaves nothing out. When I know that they want criticism then that is what they will get in a polite and constructive way. That is not to say that when I say “nice write”, “WOW” or “well done” that I do not mean it because I do. Every poem has its own beauty even when the grammar is not good or words are misspelled because many people who post here are from different parts of the world where English is not there primary language. I have found that most who have some trouble translating there work into English are very appreciative of a PM politely correcting their spelling or grammar and offering help in the future if they want it.
There are many people here who read every poem or story that is posted because it is their passion and they enjoy it and if all they do is leave a smiley face as a way of saying “I read your poem” then so be it at least they have acknowledged to the writer “I was here and read your work” and if someone reads every poem or story that is posted there is not enough time to give a well thought out response to every one of them so a person has to pick and choose which ones to give that well thought out response. Whether that response is given publicly for everyone to see or in a PM where only the writer sees it while still letting others know that you have read their work out of courtesy (the “nice write” response). If that courtesy is a simple smile or “Sweeeet write” at least the time was taken to acknowledge that persons work. So I do not see it as trivial or insulting to reply to a persons work with a or “nice write”. While everyone may not see every single thought out response to a persons work that does not mean that none are given.
There are some very talented writers here and I can only hope to someday be as good as writers such as Happier, Claire or Mairi who are among the very best here. I will admit that when I first saw the [F] I had reservations about it because there is a Feedback section on the poetry boards where people can go to get critical feedback but then I remembered one of my first posts here…it was in the feedback section and it went for a long time without a reply (still has a zero in the reply department) so eventually (a few days later) I posted that same poem in the Emotional section and got a lot of wonderful replies to it. Another reservation I had was thinking “this is going to mean a lot more typing for me” because I don’t mind offering my critical opinion when it is asked for and I know from the responses I get both privately and publicly that it is appreciated and when I give my opinion it is generally very detailed because while something may be a very good poem on the whole it can have minor faults throughout that the writer never saw or thought about that kept it from being a fantastic piece of work that could have set the page on fire. To me it is important to know that someone wants such a detailed critique of their work and hopefully when they indicate they want such a critique they will get more than one point of view because in writing poetry there really is no such thing as a bad poem because different people will not have the same opinion…it is largely based on ones own perception and nobody has “the” correct opinion but when someone gets different views it can lead to a vast improvement.
The moderators here are here to make sure people follow the rules and to keep this site free of malicious mischief so that the rest of us can have an enjoyable experience. It is not their job to reply to every single post made or to offer encouragement although I am sure the administrators would encourage them to do so. Mels is a wonderful place because of her (Mel), the moderators and especially because of us the members and there are a hell of lot more of us than there are mods or admins and between all of us there is not a single post that should go through this site without a reply to offer encouragement whether that reply is a smile or “well done”. It does not have to be a long well thought out response and a smile is better than a zero so if you see a zero then turn it into a one. _________________ All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are
Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine
These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.
Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:32 pm
naughtygurl72
Joined: 28 Jul 2006
Posts: 145
Location: neither here nor there...
ok
ill be honest here...i came across this site by accident..once i found it.i love it and wanted to join....i had always thought myself to be an excellent writer...i had written poetry for years, until life got in my way, once i found this site i began to put pen to paper again..for the first time in YEARS!! it was the support from the readers that allowed me to do that..to want me to continue to write...i realize that im not the most gifted gal on this planet..even though one of my short poems has been published....the F idea impleted could be a good idea...i think. it stands to reason that any women who does post on here would not want to be picked apart...only supported...im on the fence on this subject ladies....i do appreciate the support from the ones who do take the time to reply...on that note i have noticed that views versus replies are not in sync...to me,thats just rude..if you take the time to read something take the time to reply, at least..youd want the same on your poetry....again.ladies,,this tn gal is on the proverbial fence on this one.... _________________ they say it takes a minute to find a special person, an hour to appreciate them, a day to love them but an entire life to forget them...
Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:50 pm
ae
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: that tragic backwater, the gulf coast of florida
Apparently, there are backstories and politics to this site that the uninitiated might be ignorant of ... I am, and might as well remain so.
I'll only offer this up, out of my own experience as one who writes for a living, and teaches writing, and edits writers: more than any other kind of writing, poetry is undertaken for varied purposes and is deeply subjective by its very nature.
When teaching, I can talk myself blue about mechanics, and some will get it and some won't. Thank god for spell-check (use it!) and editors and editing! The only ones who piss me off are those who think it doesn't matter enough to even TRY to learn proper grammar, syntax, punctuation, spelling, etc. (I figure once you've mastered the rules, then you're entitled to break them.)
But the most important thing I can do for any writer is to help them UNlearn their FEAR of writing, and help them be willing to stand up for their work. That requires subjecting one's work to scrutiny. Defending doesn't require being defensive; but it does require considering a criticism, and considering what you meant when you wrote what you wrote, and whether you've communicated it or not, or inadvertently distracted or detracted from your communication. E.g., you have spelled some words wrong in your poem. Did you misspell those words on purpose, for some particular effect? Maybe you did. Perhaps you intend to imbue the piece with additional meaning through the use of homophones. But is that clear to the reader? It should be. That's not the place for a mystery, because is that what you want me thinking about after I read your poem? Your spelling? If you have chosen some structureless form, is it to free your content or to obscure it, or to simply find your words the quickest path out of your head? And what the HELL are you doing with your punctuation, or NO punctuation, for that matter?! Its use or non use is an opportunity to do something more with your piece, if you choose to use that tool. Just THINK about it.
It doesn't matter if it's poetry, or news writing or creative nonfiction or short story. You have to consider whether what you've produced is getting the job done. And to do that, you have to know what the job is. With other forms, that's more clear. With poetry, it's a little more open. Purists will disagree, and they're welcome to. I am supported in this contention by innumerable women who say they intended mainly to cleanse their souls, not to create a breathtaking work of staggering beauty, or whatever the line is. And if it's just to purge emotionally, or to create fodder for social interplay and exchange, then you're looking for a different caliber of feedback than if you're crafting a piece of work, or working on a piece of your craft. And sometimes it's both. Most of what I'm churning out these days are purges and dirges and maudlin wallows, so when I can drag myself off my pity pot, I'll see if I can venture back up to a more challenging standard for myself.
I'm not certain my comments are responsive to anything in particular. I just appreciate that the discussion of criticism is, well, part of the discussion. _________________ -
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"...a soul that wakes up to find itself wandering, unwanted, between the spheres."
Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:12 am
Cavewoman
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2056
Location: nearby
DANG!
y'all got yerselves a real Comstock Loader....
having fun? _________________ " The sorcerers in life are created within each of us" --- Lynn V. Andrews
Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:29 am
melons Site Admin
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 2371
Hi everyone,
I'm following this topic closely with interest. I'll be posting a response to this after the week is out, other issues currently take priority to this debate.
Mel
Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:00 am
melons Site Admin
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 2371
Wyld
you were not asked to step down for the reasons you have given. You were asked to step down for other reasons.
Mel
Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:07 am
Happier Blue
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 379
Since I am the one who started all of the commotion over this subject, I would like to attempt to clarify my thoughts.
First of all, I thought the wording of Mairi’s introduction was most unfortunate. She wrote:
“Anyone who would like more than simply to be read and to have comments from her friends …”
I responded:
“It is sad to think that only friends comment on the wealth and diversity of poetry that is posted here.”
I am not so naïve not to have recognized that there is more than an ounce of truth in what Mairi was saying, but, that does not make it right and it hardly seems like a very good way to introduce this or any other subject. We are probably all at least a little guilty of reading and commenting on the works of writers whom we like and/or whose work we like. However, it would more appropriate to say, “If you are only reading and commenting on the work of your friends, you are doing an injustice to yourself and to the many other women who post their work here.”
I am not against offering constructive feedback and believe that most, if not all, who has responded to this post, including myself, would actively support such a system. However, based on experience, it seems quite clear to me that the vast majority aren’t interested in receiving critical feedback.
With or without an [F] after the title, we are all free to offer constructive criticism when commenting on any post though it seems that this is seldom done. There is also the Poetry for Critique forum for those seeking help though this forum is rarely used.
It has been said that the Poetry for Critique forum is a black hole where you post and wait endlessly for someone to respond. While this maybe true, the Critique forum isn’t the only black hole in the poetry section.
The Emotional Poetry section has more posts than all of the other forums combined accounting for 52% of the all posts. Love Poetry is a distant second at 15% and Sensual/Erotic third with 14%. Of the 21 forums, 3 combine for 81% of the total posts, while the other 18 forums are left to divide the remaining 19% of the posts. The point here being that there isn’t just one black hole for poetry to get lost in, there are many.
I said that I thought this program was well intended but ill conceived and there has been nothing said here that changes my opinion.
I believe an attempt should have first been made to poll the members before implementing this new resource. As far as I know this was not done and I wonder how or why a new resource was created when no attempt was made to identify the needs of those who would use it.
My larger concern was that no attempt was made to insure feedback would be provided in a timely and appropriate manner. The burden of running this program shouldn’t fall on one or two people. But, nothing was done beforehand to contact people who might be interested in actively participating this program.
From what I now know, a simple way of requesting feedback was identified and implemented, with no thought given to how this all may logically work.
Finally, the activity of the Moderators surfaced as a somewhat related side issue. Yes, I disagreed with Mairi and I think rightfully so because the facts did not support her statement regarding the recent activity level of the moderators.
When I first joined Mels almost two years ago, the majority of Moderators were very visible on the boards posting their own work as well as commenting on the work of others. Now the opposite seems to be true.
Those who now fill the roles of moderators did not join Mels for that purpose. Like the rest of us, they joined because they were writers and their contributions are now missed.
~Blue~
Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:05 pm
Mairi bheag
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 5094
Location: Scotland
quote:Originally posted by Happier Blue:
However, it would more appropriate to say, “If you are only reading and commenting on the work of your friends, you are doing an injustice to yourself and to the many other women who post their work here.”
No, that would have been gratuitously judgmental.
Now I really am
not
following this thread any further.
Mb
_________________ all posted material (c) Marie Marshall, unless otherwise stated.
Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:25 pm
Mdm Prez
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1536
Location: U.S. of A.
'F' Discussion
I'm a member here for 16 months. As I recall, a year ago, many of the mods at the time were not employed on a full time basis. We all know that. Therefore, they had much more time to give the site. Most of the mods now are gainfully employed, some have families and obligations to which they need to tend. YET, they still give what they can, when they can.
I came to this site as a reader. Decided to join after a few months. I AM NOT A WRITER. I have never replied to a post with a smiley face. But I have replied to posts of any and all that I enjoy as my time would allow. Don't know the statistics on how many replies I make, probably not that many.
When I come here, I am usually looking to decompress. I find reading very relaxing. Maybe I'll stay 10 minutes at a time. And surprisingly enough I have written some things, but very pedestrian pieces. Yet, that's one more thing this site has done for me. I've written in my own inimitable way, but frankly not really looking for literary guidance. It's too late for me, and I've come to have fun with my simple rhyming work.
I am not qualified to offer a critique on someone's work here. From me,
and with all honesty, I offer what I feel, not an intellectual dissertation on
someone's writing skills. How dare I?
So, from this point forward, I will not be able to reply to a poem with an 'F',
as the words I would give would be emotionally based, not authoritatively as a literary guru.
However, I feel there's another agenda going on here, yet to be revealed.
It's unfortunate.
Mdm Prez _________________ If you're not getting the answers you want,
you're not asking the right questions.
Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:35 pm
realwoman
Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: under our tree in Africa
I have followed this thread with an almost amused half-smile, and can only agree with Mdm Prez - it is obvious that there is unfortunately another, still hidden, agenda here....
If i may be so bold to ask, Blue, are you now 'Happier'? Whose contributions are the ones that you are 'missing'???
~real, still with an almost amused half-smile _________________ .
.
light is to darkness as love is to fear...
Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:00 pm
ae
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1025
Location: that tragic backwater, the gulf coast of florida
I ask this question utterly without guile or agenda, as I'm quite new to Mel's...
Did I glibly whiz past something like a User Agreement when I signed up, or something of that ilk? I did read the rules for posting closely (I'll come back to that), but I don't remember if there was anything that otherwise established what expectations I might have from the site.
It is structured much like a legal site I used to troll quite regularly, where people could post whatever legal inquiries they wanted, and they had no guarantee of getting a useful response, or even any response at all. In fact, sometimes the regular users, even moderators, could be terrifically abusive to posters who had got themselves in some kind of legal jam or another, jaywalking or ripping the labels off mattresses or whatever (in fact, it's become the subject of precedent setting legal action now, because a guy was banned for his abusiveness and he then continued to stalk and harrass people, I gather, but they never have identified him, so they just sued him as Unidentified Abusive Poster!) Anyway, my point/question is about what the expectations are, if any...? There's clearly a bit of a community grown up here at Mel's, so maybe some of that is organic and grown over time, rather than formally established ...? Any insight appreciated.
------------------
Also, for Mel, just in case she minds this sort of thing ... it does say in the rules that posts will be reviewed before they're allowed to appear. Clearly, posts go right up without moderation. This is actually safer for the site owner, legally speaking, and under U.S. law anyway, reduces your liability in the event of any harrassment, libel or defamation action that might arise. But you might want to take the PRE-posting assertion out of the published rules and note instead that it's an honor system. Just happen to be embroiled in a legal action related, in part, to that issue ... _________________ -
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"...a soul that wakes up to find itself wandering, unwanted, between the spheres."
Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:40 am
smart_cookie
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 2310
Location: USA
I wasn't going to post again, here, hoping this whole thing would fizzle out, but it seems to be getting more fractious and personal by the day. A little of that is probably my fault.
But, I just don't want to see a wonderful and postive site brought down over something as ultimately trivial as the (F).
Please, let's not damage mels over this. If we have problems one to one with each other, couldn't that be better served in pm's?
As for the (F), use it, don't use it , for goodness sake, it isn't worth all of this, is it?
--Cookie
Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:06 am
Sunny
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 1571
Location: Massachusetts
quote:Originally posted by smart_cookie_smart:
I wasn't going to post again, here, hoping this whole thing would fizzle out, but it seems to be getting more fractious and personal by the day. A little of that is probably my fault.
But, I just don't want to see a wonderful and postive site brought down over something as ultimately trivial as the (F).
Please, let's not damage mels over this. If we have problems one to one with each other, couldn't that be better served in pm's?
As for the (F), use it, don't use it , for goodness sake, it isn't worth all of this, is it?
--Cookie
I was going to sit back quietly as well, but I have to echo Cookie's sentiments whole heartedly. Mels is the first poetry board I've ever joined, actually the first board I've ever joined, and I've come to love this place. I've also come to love poetry as a result of being here. I'd hate to see it torn apart because of a damned letter.
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or “nice write”. While everyone may not see every single thought out response to a persons work that does not mean that none are given.
