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Intelligent design. What do you think ?
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Alice In Quantum Land



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 77


Flying Spaghetti Monster ?

Post Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:48 pm 
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Hawaiian



Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 816
Location: Transplanted to Africa


Yes, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, which was in a letter to the Kansas Board of Education when they were to decide whether on not to teach Intelligent Design in Biology class.

I guess I was lucky to go to a private school that taught biology in biology class and religion in religion class. (Religion was mandatory, biology was not.)

The difference I see is that religion (intelligent design included) is based on faith. I believe...in God the father, the Bible, the Koran, the book of Mormon, the FSM, Isis, or even as that there is no God, as you believe. Do any of us have any proof of any of this? of course not...that's why it's called faith.

Science is based on measurable empirical studies. I don't have a problem with science saying, this is what we think about gravity today. It may change on it's heels tomorrow. Science can't and shouldn't claim that they've discovered all that there is to know about anything. But that's the beauty of it, imho. There is always something more to understand. There will always be things that fit outside the box of empirical studies. Science changes with new empirical evidence.

Galileo was excommunicated and labeled a heretic for following Copernicus by saying that the earth was not flat. There is now much more supporting empirical evidence to Copernicus' theory. Was Copernicus 100% correct? No, he wasn't. Later evidence provided much better detail.

People may believe that the earth is flat (See the dumb one, Sherri something? on The View) but her belief doesn't have any empirical evidence. Shocked

Curiosity should be encouraged in education and not merely teaching rote to parrots. It's a pity that so much of the kind of faith we see discourages any curiosity. It's a pity that our education system produces parrots.

But nevermind about the FSM, I'm more interested in the new direction this thread has taken. Very Happy

~Hawn
_________________
'A'a i ka hula, e waiho i ka hilahila i ka hale.
Dare to dance, leave your shyness at home.

Post Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:29 pm 
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Alice In Quantum Land



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 77


I completely agree with you...

Some people say that I believe in science, that I believe in Darwin's idea like a priest believe in the 7 days creation. As you said it very well, science is not about believing in anything, it's about saying : "This is what we think about the world for the moment." And you can bet that what we think about the world will change, as it always did.

I just want to say that it's not that I don't believe in god, but more that I have no reasons so suspect the existence of any kind of God... Will it change, why not. But that doesn't make me an agnostic, I'm still an atheist.

Post Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:53 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Lets take a look at the history of science and the Islamic culture…there is a period in Islamic history called “The Golden Age” but that is nothing new since just about any culture you can name has a “Golden age”. The golden age of Islam lasted for roughly 500 years from around the mid eight century to roughly the late thirteenth to early fourteenth century. During this time span there were some incredable advances in science and technology for that time period. Sumeria, Babylon, Greece, England, Rome, France, Persia, Spain and more have all had spands in history where their civilizations led the world in science and technological advancement. There have been cultures that pressed forward due to religion or in spite of it…but what of Islam? Did Islam aid or hinder science?

What brought the “golden age” to the islamic world? In my opinion there are several reasons for this. Books, common language, trade, a religion that encouraged learning. A religion that encouraged learning? Yes…a religion that encouraged learning. There are many factors at play that brought it all together and one of those is because of the religion itself. I read in discover magazine where Zaghloul El-Naggar said, “There is no conflict between Islam and science, science is inquisition. It’s running after the unknown. Islam encourages seeking knowledge. It’s considered an act of worship.” For anyone who does not know who Zaghloul El-Naggar is an author and geologist from Egypt.

When Islam came into being there was no science in the Arab culture but as Islam firmly established itself as a political and military power. Though its conquests of other cultures Arabs acquired greater knowledge and along with this encounter came the desire to know and learn more and they did. It can be attested to by naming the great philosophers, mathematicians and scholars of the ancient Islamic world such as Jabir Ibn Haiyan who made great strides in chemistry for his time. There are others such as Al-Khwarizmi, Al-Ghazali, Ibn Sina and a host of others contributed greatly to the advances of science from agriculture and mathematics to sociology and philosophy along with other sciences. One of the great benefits to this advance in Islam and science was the fact that Islam was more open and tolerant of other cultures at this time and worked together with Christians, Jews and other cultures because of a more pluralistic society enabling a greater exchange of ideas.

Over time and through differing interpretations by fundamentalists and more liberal Muslims created a tension within Islam itself and when the more fundamental side of Islam took control it all but ended the pursuit of science in the Islamic world for hundreds of years. Yes religion played a great role in advancing science in the Islamic world and it also nearly killed it in the same culture but it never died and is today on its way back.

Jordan was selected as the site for SESAME (Synchrotron Light for Experimental Science Applications in the Middle East) Due in part (a big part)because King Abdullah II donated land and $10 million for the facility that would house the synchrotron. The project is modeled after the European Council for Nuclear Research which was established in 1952 to help restore Europe’s tradition of scientific learning. When SESAME becomes fully operational in 2009 the facility at Al-Balqa Applied University near Amman Jordan researchers will rotate through doing their work in sessions. Like CERN…SESAME was conceived in part to motivate the region’s best and brightest to stay in the region instead of leaving to find bigger and better things in other countries and there is even hope that it will bring many who have left back. There is also the idea that this will help attract the younger generations to science and this is not the only project looking to the future of science in the islamic world.

What are the reasons for this desire to bring science back to prominence in Islamic society?
To answer that I will quote…
Science and the Islamic world The quest for rapprochement by Pervez Hoodbhoy

“Muslim leaders today, realizing that military power and economic growth flow from technology, frequently call for speedy scientific development and a knowledge-based society. Often that call is rhetorical, but in some Muslim countries, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Pakistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Nigeria among others, official patronage and funding for science and education have grown sharply in recent years.”

To me that means they see money and they see power through science.

Are there antiscience movements?
Yes. They occur in many cultures and religions around the world and they have been around since…well they have been around since the advent of science and they will never go away just as science will never go away.


Will be back with more...hopefully before Christmas

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:31 am 
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Hawaiian



Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 816
Location: Transplanted to Africa


Point of clarification please Eire, what does this mean?

quote:
Originally posted by Eiregirl:
When Islam came into being there was no science in the Arab culture...


Persia, now Iran, was studying astronomy/astrology (there wasn't a difference yet) for at least 2,500 years. As far as I know Islam didn't rise until about the 7th century. There's the "Baghdad Battery" which we still don't know what it's purpose was, dated about 250 AD. There's complex water distribution and irrigation systems dating also to ancient time. OK, these things maybe more aptly described as technology, but doesn't that imply that there's some science there? Or maybe I'm reading it wrong, and you meant something else?
_________________
'A'a i ka hula, e waiho i ka hilahila i ka hale.
Dare to dance, leave your shyness at home.

Post Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:38 pm 
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Alice In Quantum Land



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 77


A religion that encouraged learning? Yes…a religion that encouraged learning.

I don't really think that it was the religion that encouraged learning but more the mentality of the time. Since religions are very malleable, depending of the interpretation that you have of it, you can try to learn about the world in a scientific way or to accept the scriptures as they are and not try to understand anything.

Islam was pro learning until mentalities changed. And today, witnessing the power of strong scientific countries, science is coming back to the Islamic world. Which I think is a good thing. But imagine what this civilization could of had accomplish if it never went away.

___


I don't think that it is true that science and religion can coexist peacefully, I think that there will always be conflicts between the 2 since they are fundamentally different in their premise. Science have no a priori while religion as some, this makes them incompatible.

Science and religion can be good neighbors but not good room mates. They will hurt each other if they try to live in the same house. Darwin's theory did harm to religion because science stepped foot onto a ground that use to belong to religion.

Post Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:55 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


quote:
Originally posted by Hawaiian:
Point of clarification please Eire, what does this mean?

quote:
Originally posted by Eiregirl:
When Islam came into being there was no science in the Arab culture...


Persia, now Iran, was studying astronomy/astrology (there wasn't a difference yet) for at least 2,500 years. As far as I know Islam didn't rise until about the 7th century. There's the "Baghdad Battery" which we still don't know what it's purpose was, dated about 250 AD. There's complex water distribution and irrigation systems dating also to ancient time. OK, these things maybe more aptly described as technology, but doesn't that imply that there's some science there? Or maybe I'm reading it wrong, and you meant something else?


Point of clarification...there was no scientific discovery in the early years of the Islamic culture which started around 610 A.D.
There is no doubt technology has been advancing since humanity has been on earth and it could even be argued that science has been advancing right along with it. However the point being made is that from the 8th to about the 14th century the Islamic belief system encouraged learning and the advancement of knowledge and this was a very prominent period of scientific discovery and a great deal of that came from the middle east. Were other parts of the world advancing as well...yes...was that due to collaboration...some of it was. Did that collaboration end around the start of the 14th century (give or take) no but about 99% of it did and that was mainly because of the fundamentalist muslims taking control of the arab culture. Did this put an end to science in Islamic culture...no...but it sure put the brakes on and slowed it down to a crawl for a very long time and it is just within the past century that more interest has been shown in science and especially within the last 25 years.

I hope that clarifies it more but if not please let me know

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:03 am 
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33LB



Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 16


evolution is supported by mountains of empirical evidence and has valuable practical applications in medicine and industry. an evolutionary perspective of life has ultimately benefited both the economy and people of western nations.

intelligent design has yet to produce any practical application which will benefit us. intelligent design has NO merits of its own- it simply attempts to poke holes in other scientific theories. advocates for intelligent design search for complex biological systems (such as the flagellum or immune system) and claim they are too complex to have evolved, but this is really just an "argument from ignorance." evolution is a much better explanation for life on earth than intelligent design.

i do not want to see intelligent design taught in science classrooms for the same reason why i do not want to see the stork story taught beside sexual reproduction. like the stork story, intelligent design is simply bad science.
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Post Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:10 pm 
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