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Is superstition an healthy state of mind?
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Alice In Quantum Land



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 77
Is superstition an healthy state of mind?

Are there any place for any superstitious attitude of any kind in our modern world of science, knowledge, discoveries and investigation?

Everywhere I look, in newspapers, infomercials, at the convenience store, at the drug store and even on this forum... We are always exposed to superstitious or pseudo-scientific beliefs : Horoscopes, homeopathy, taro card readers, faith healers and so on...

Despite the fact that believing in these things may be comforting, a lot of people are making enormous amounts of money out of these. Homeopathy for example sells there products at outrageous prices even though it is proven, beyond any doubt, that there is not a single molecule of medication present in these products. But taking them releases the stress so we feel better.

So this is my question : Do you think that the feeling of welfare that superstitious beliefs brings to us is worth it considering the fact that other people will financially profit greatly out of our naivety? Should we be more skeptical about everything and demand good and solid evidence for services and products, of any kind, that are being sold to us?

Post Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:28 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Very Happy

Hugs Alice...thanks for what could be a wonderful discussion.

Yes Alice there is room in today’s world for what many people call superstitious or pseudo-science beliefs.

Science does not have all the answers…nobody on this planet has all the answers and never will.

I am a big believer in science and nature and that the best answers come from not simply believing and following one path while excluding the other but by letting the paths merge into one.

What struck me the most in you post was your comments on medicine and healing. Now a lot of people will confuse homeopathy with holistic medicine and herbal remedies. (I have at times myself before I did a little research)

Several years ago I got into a discussion with a doctor about medications and was asking her opinion about herbs and various plants some herbal doctors use. She basically said it was a bunch of BS and continued to berate herbal remedies and me for even mentioning them but I decided to arm myself with information and during my next visit I brought the subject up again. This time however I pointed out that there is not a single medication used today or at anytime in history that cannot be traced back to natural ingredients. Even synthetic drugs are made from natural products and ingredients.

I know many people will confuse herbalists with homeopaths but there is a bit of a difference. As many have said (in papers and studies on homeopathy) there is little if any medicinal value left in the products of most homeopaths while herbalists tend to leave most of the medicinal value of the plants and herbs they use in the product. But there is a missing ingredient that most people forget about…the mind and the body itself both of which have tremendous healing power.

I strongly believe that on this planet there is a natural way to treat almost every illness and disease known. Why do I believe this? Because nature provides all the ingredients.
Why do you think pharmaceutical companies hire botanists, biologists, marine biologists and others in the natural sciences field to study plants and animals in nature? So they can find new drugs. There are even companies that search out new or rare plant life to study in hopes of finding a new remedy.

That doctor I mentioned had never thought about it…even after years of medical school and private practice she had never thought about where drugs come from. Today at many universities you can find a department of integrative medicine or a similar department which takes a look at new ways to treat illness or should I say they looks at old ways in a new light.

Some good books to read
Women’s Health in Complementary and Integrative Medicine by Tieraona Low Dog, M.D. and Marc S. Micozzi, MD PhD (Tieraona Low Dog is the education director for the Program in Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona.) (Dr. Micozzi is currently the director of the Policy Institute for Integrative Medicine at Thomas Jefferson University Hospital in Philadelphia)

Ask Dr. Weil by Dr. Andrew Weil M.D. and Steven Petrow
Natural Health Natural Medicine by Dr. Andrew Weil M.D.
(Andrew Weil is the founder of the Program in Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona)

And there are many more books that are very good and geared toward natural remedies and preventing illness.
Can you imagine if there were more doctors and everyday people…especially people who looked more toward preventing illness rather than simply treating it after the fact? I think it would be a wonderful thing.


I am sitting in a crowded room and Deb (my sweetie) walks up behind me. I know she is there because I can feel her presence and I know who it is even though I had no idea she was even in the same room. Science cannot explain that to my satisfaction.

I may address a few other points later but I have some things to do…

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
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All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:30 pm 
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Alice In Quantum Land



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 77


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that natural medicines like herbalism have no medical value. Homeopathy however is not a natural medicine nor does it claim it is. Homeopathy is about diluting chemical substances up to the point where the probability of finding 1 molecule of the original solution in the final product that sits on our drugstore shelves are 1 in billions (and I'm not exaggerating). The usual dilution ratio of homeopathic products are 30X that means 1 part of the original concentrated solution in 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 parts of water (1 part chemical in 10 to the power of 30 parts water). So this as nothing to do with natural medicine and as everything to do with what I'd call supernatural medicine, it needs the help of a concept that was falsified over and over again by the experiences (the so called memory of water ).

The only thing that I don't like about the natural medicines that we find in our drugstore is the complete lack of governmental supervision that the people who makes these have. They are not controlled, they don't have good dosage standards, they don't have enough studies to control the side effects etc... That's why I wouldn't recommend them, but I do not throw herbalism in the bag of superstitious beliefs.

Post Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:11 pm 
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Cavewoman



Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2056
Location: nearby


I'm not armed with statistics....
I am armed with a ton of experience... especially of the observation ilk...
based on these experiences, i believe.... why? because SOOOOOOO many of my patients who have a very poor prognosis have found relief with these over the counter remedies; if 50% of healing and plain old feeling better is psychological and these things provide that, then i'm all for it.....

if you're discussing all the preventive and "beautifying" components, then I'm opting out of this convo..... because i am NOT armed with a ton of statistics.....

beyond herbs and rational megadosing with vitamins (i am NOT a supporter of the USDA recommended amounts)..... i don't personally consume the products

as to somebody is profiting.... well, welcome to free enterprise.... a bunch of old adages come to mind, do your research, be an informed consumer, make your choices, either way, somebody is going to profit somehow
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" The sorcerers in life are created within each of us" --- Lynn V. Andrews

Post Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:29 pm 
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Alice In Quantum Land



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 77


I understand and agree with what you are saying. As you said, a lot of your patients are relieved by these and whether or not it is due to the placebo effect, it is difficult not to be for that. But how much is to much? Because I believe that it is wrong for someone to abuse the ignorance of another. So on one hand we have the good things that the believer feels (and I to am all for that), on the other hand you have dishonest people who are profiting from the ignorance of the believers (I cannot be for that). So, how do we pick a side here?

Post Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:06 pm 
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Cavewoman



Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2056
Location: nearby


its not about picking sides... its about relieving human suffering... its the consumer's choice

our responsbility to one another is inform as best we can, and to protect as best we can... i'm not talking about financial protection - as far as that goes - for the most part, the contents of one's wallet takes care of that -

i'm talking about protection from harmful ingredients/applications ... and in that regard, for the most part, "the government" hasn't done a truly awful job... as for you and me, we can inform those around of any truly harmful components or outcomes that we are aware of.....

when it comes to the cancer patient crossing the borders to obtain truly bogus treatments, drugs, etc.... well, all we can do effectively is try to educate with facts... BUT, you are up against a very huge obstacle, the human will to live..... and for those that can afford these miracle cures, most are willing to try .... its sort of like stopping a snowball from rolling downhill

the over the counter stuff doesn't bother me ... most of it is harmless (useless also in terms of truly effecting any grand improvement or creating a barrier) other than some of the junk the body builders manage to get into but that's some REAL pricey stuff and most folks aren't inclined in that direction [that being said, a lot of the body building enhancement stuff that is legal has a ton of chemistry upfront in the advertisement which one is free to peruse on one's own] ...sooooo, the over the counter stuff and folks making a profit bugs you? well, name anything that somebody doesn't make a profit from in the course of a sale...... like i said, its free enterprise... and free enterprise isn't perfect ... snake charmers have been around for as long as humankind has been around, its our way...

what do you do? you choose for yourself and live with the choices of others... you try to protect all of us from the truly dangerous substances through education and of course, legislation if it comes to a substance with that degree of danger ... but to try to legislate everything that comes down the pike... excuse me, there's TOOOOO much legislation already, enough... at some point in time, a human being MUST take responsibility for their own choices, including how they spend their money AND what they stick in their mouth or smear all over their body, etc. ... the days of pointing one's finger across the yard at another human and yelling "they made me! they lied to me! they forced me!", etc. do come to an end just as childhood DOES end.

PLEASE..... no more legislation.... some of the fun of being an adult IS reading the front page of the Enquirer in the grocery store checkout lane and it IS perusing the shelves of the "health" section at the local hippie store...... let us make our own choices and live with the consequences
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" The sorcerers in life are created within each of us" --- Lynn V. Andrews

Post Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:33 pm 
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Khaleesi
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Joined: 06 May 2005
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I have to agree with Cave. Yes, by all means keep the dangerous stuff off the shelves. BUT we are adults. You can't legislate everything. What would life be like if we did? Reminds me of the home owner society president running around the neighborhood measuring the height of everyone's grass and berating them if their grass was one half inch too tall. And before you say "That's a little extreme" there are some people out there like that. They will legislate us all into a corner. Take away our free will and our choices.

Khaleesi
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Hike up your skirt a little more and show your world to me.....

Never start a row in public when it can be settled politely in private. ~My Father~

Post Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:40 am 
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Alice In Quantum Land



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 77


_______________________________"I really love your minds." Alice

These are very interesting points. I agree with you on this : "No more legislations... please let us be!!!!!!!"

But, whether we like it or not a line must be drawn somewhere. We have to somehow agree on when to consider a certain product or a certain idea to be dangerous. When does a benign or even "good" bogus idea becomes a dangerous bogus idea? Is this a legitimate question or as this already been taken care of by our global "common sense"?

I probably have more radical views on this subject than others. I believe that any kind of faith based logic has, by definition, no reasons to be and I feel that, in the end and for 1000's of reasons, this posture will do us more bad than good... That's why I think I have to fight it. I sometimes feel like a mother that is telling her kid : "Pot will lead you to directly to heroin" I think that superstitions will lead us directly to perdition (yeah... I know... I'm dramatizing). But that's really the way I feel.

Post Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:14 am 
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Cavewoman



Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2056
Location: nearby


you're entitled to the way you think and feel....
i've said all about i have to say...
enjoy!
_________________
" The sorcerers in life are created within each of us" --- Lynn V. Andrews

Post Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:23 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


“But, whether we like it or not a line must be drawn somewhere. We have to somehow agree on when to consider a certain product or a certain idea to be dangerous. When does a benign or even "good" bogus idea becomes a dangerous bogus idea?”

First off I would like to point out that I am from Ireland but I live in the United States and from your profile you are in the beautiful city of Montreal…we have been there and I do think it is very beautiful.

Now we are starting down a little different road especially when you throw “idea” into the mix. To me that sounds like someone wants to put limits on what a person can think.

Yes I think a line must be drawn and that line must say, “This far and no more”. When I was a kid living in Ireland you would hear people talk about “America land of the free”. Well now that I have been here for many years I sometimes think “America land of the free…yeah right it is more like the land of the over legislated knuckleheaded bureaucrats who want to turn what was a free country 200 years ago into a fascists socialistic police state”. Yes I know that is a bit extreme but that is how I think sometimes. When are people going to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions? I don’t want you or anyone who does not know me looking out for my best interests…you don’t know me so how can you determine what is best for me?

Some of the most radical ideas have led to some wonderful discoveries. Without people who are willing to go out on a limb…without people who will take a chance on trying something new…or even something old then the only thing accomplished is that they have been essentially handcuffed by the road blocks put up in front of them. Granted…some of those roadblocks are needed and they are already in place and even now I think in some cases there are far more than needed. Look at what has happened with the overuse of antibiotics. A person gets the common cold and run to the doctor for antibiotics. I am sure Cavewoman can tell you more about that than I can but my brain tells me that if you keep feeding your body antibiotics that virus will eventually grow its own immunity to it when in many cases it would have been much better to let your own body fight it off but now your antibiotic fed body finds itself to weak to fight off the virus that is now immune to the pharmaceutical antibiotics. The sad thing is…there were people who saw it coming 20 to 30 years ago but nobody listened. Even in the 1960’s scientists were holding up red flags warning of the dangers of the overuse of antibiotics in animals and how that would eventually speed up the rate at which bacteria in humans would develop resistance to medicines. Did anyone listen? No…most farm animals are still pumped full of antibiotics. We are a world of over medicated people who keep trying to find the easy road and eventually that road is going to run off a cliff.

If a person has an illness and the doctor writes them a prescription and they tell the doctor…I don’t need that I have some herbs and stuff at home I will take. Are you going run to the government and demand the doctor lock the patient in a room and force the medicine down them?

Yes a line needs to be drawn at people interfering with the lives of other people they don’t even know and sometimes in the lives of people they do know.

I know you did not mean to imply putting limits on what people can think…but the scary side of that is…there are actually people who would love to be able to do that.

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:32 am 
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Phoenix
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Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 1664
Location: Tallahassee Florida


Did you know that Canadian doctors have found that if a woman with breast cancer ate a muffin made with linseed oil every day during a study her cancer shrunk dramatically? There are many natural cures that stem from medical treatment outside of our western medical practice. Why don't we know about them here? Why don't our doctors follow these other natural remedies rather than poison us with radiation, chemo and surgury? WHy? Because they need to pay for all that expensive equipment, and sell us drugs, and they can't patent linseed oil so they can't make a lot of money off of it.

Drug companies don't want to cure illnesses, they want us to take drugs the rest of our lives. There are thousands of proven cures to diseases we believe must be cured by expensive medical treatments, when that really doesnt have to be the case.

Homeopathy has been very effective, as have energetics, chiropractic care, chelation, ayurvedic, Chinese medicine and others.
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"A little work won't hurt you bad, but just in case I'm wrong, you'll be smiling when they pronounce you dead." Amanda Marshall 'This could take all night

Post Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:51 am 
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Cavewoman



Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2056
Location: nearby


MANY doctors would love to prescribe more homeopathic remedies..... BUT, their insurance companies won't sell them AFFORDABLE liability policies if they do..... (affordable meaning in the range of $1/2 million vs. $2 or $3 million if they do).... THAT is the primary reason U.S.A. physicians do not presecribe them.....

that being said... there ARE many age old, tried and true, scientifically verified natural remedies readily available.... why don't folks know? well, most folks don't do their own research - they just rely on word of mouth, Reader's Digest or their physicians for information....
as i said earlier... the responsibility remains an individual's responsibility to get educated and savvy and then make a choice....
_________________
" The sorcerers in life are created within each of us" --- Lynn V. Andrews

Post Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:45 am 
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Alice In Quantum Land



Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 77


I completely agree with you when you say that pharma. companies violently pushes their products on the market in very unethical ways. Not only that but I see a great deal of doctors prescribing very powerful antibiotics that has lot's of side effects to them, when they could of used something milder but since some of them are to lazy to do their job they say : "The hell with it, the big guns will nuke the small infections". This can bring complications if the bacteria survives the antibio.

But it's not all black all white... Chemo for instance, do more good then bad in most cases. But I agree with you, if we could use more of what nature has to offer us... we'll probably be better off, without necessarily dropping chemo and all the expensive equipment that really can save lives.

Post Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:21 am 
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Phoenix
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Joined: 27 Jan 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by Cavewoman:
MANY doctors would love to prescribe more homeopathic remedies..... BUT, their insurance companies won't sell them AFFORDABLE liability policies if they do..... (affordable meaning in the range of $1/2 million vs. $2 or $3 million if they do).... THAT is the primary ....


That reminds me of someone who doesn't want to do something so they say their wife doesnt want to go. I've never had a doctor even recommend a natural alternative. Oh, they will say take this over the counter drug or that one, but when was the last time an MD suggested a natural remedy for you? If you ask them about one, they look at you like you just grew another head. They are trained in a system that pushes those methods, and when an alternative one comes out they call them quacks. Remember how Chiropractors were called quacks and many still do call them that. Or Massage Therapists ridiculed and having to to fight for every inch of respect.

I'm not saying all doctors, but a vast majority never offer or look for a better, healthier way to treat a disease. Yes, drugs can and do save lives. But, the goal of the big drug companies is to get us taking as many drugs as possible so they earn more and more money.
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"A little work won't hurt you bad, but just in case I'm wrong, you'll be smiling when they pronounce you dead." Amanda Marshall 'This could take all night

Post Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:16 pm 
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Cavewoman



Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 2056
Location: nearby


most don't recommend because they can't - if they do recommend, and it doesn't work or exacerbates the medical situation, then the patient does have some legal ground to bring suit..... which is why they don't - the law suit which circles my point back around to the liability insurance issue...

i'm not saying there aren't one hell of a lot of them out there that have no idea what's going on with regard to natural alternatives - on the other hand, many do..... and off the record, i've had some make their recommendations with regard to homeopathic methods ...

at the hospital where i work, both massage therapy and aromatherapy are standard daily practice on the ortho/neuro unit as an element of pain relief - it was the doctors and nurses of these units that first brought it to the board for approval - the board loved the idea - the hospital's liability carrier went flying for the keyboard to add exclusion language and up the rates - it took us two years of haggling with state government (they oversee carriers in the state) to get the rate increase and exclusion language stopped before we could institute the program into standard practice ... [ok ok, so what? i know, its just some smelly oils and a little rubdown, but its a start at the institutional level... which is a huge step] ... as a sidebar, last month, the hospital was exstatic to report to the state, the AMA and to our insurance carrier that in the 14 months that we've had this program, the use of pain medications (specifically, demerol, vicodin, percocet, morphine to name the big guns) fell by nearly 20% on the ortho/neuro unit... last month we began using three different sorts of heating/cooling units with an eye toward dramatically increasing 24 hour post op voluntary flexibility in ortho patients ... the outfits from whom we purchased the different units showed up and started their sales pitch along these lines about two months after we began the alternative pain therapies... their pitch being, reduce the utilization of pharmacological solutions to bring about reduced pain and greater range-of-motion in the post operative patient... we ARE trying!

both the AMA and the nursing boards are working to have more homeopathic approaches approved by the federal and state legislators, but until that happens, liability coverage for medical providers continues to remain one of the major players preventing both physicians and nurses from officially making many recommendations... (if the boards/fed approve the approach, then the insurance companies must cover the practice)....

neither one of us is "wrong" here.....
its true what you say about chiropracty and to some extent massage... its also true that may of them would rather stick to their schooling, its also true that huge pharmaceutical companies have their nasty ways to stay in business .... its also true that there are many practioners out there who are not only aware of alternative methods but utilize them themselves and "off the record" try to make recommendations....

two of the hottest general/family practice docs in my neck of the woods have stuck their necks out to purchase the high liability and are officially prescribing natural methods... their practices are booming... its a shame that not every community has access to such practioners... but until some things change, it gonna stay this way

as to when was the last time a doctor provided me with a natural remedy? yesterday - boil one half of one large white onion, open face down, in approximately 1 cup of water for about 5 minutes, pour the liquid into a mug, add enough brown sugar to make palatable and slowly drink - and it worked!... i stopped couging and gagging and could finally breathe without my throat and chest aching ( i have a lovely cold ) for about 3 hours...! (without being stupified with over the counter or prescription meds....
these practioners ARE out there, you have to root around a bit to find them, but they are here....with some changes in law, there will be more and more of them - just as there are more chiropracters and massage therapists today than there was 30 years ago ... and some of the med schools and nearly all the nursing schools are offering the foundation coursework to get the thinking started...a few of the scientifically researched and certified methods are taught/offered/certified via CEU's yearly for both physicians and nurses who are already licensed practioners... again, its up to the physician or nurse to choose to follow through on the thinking and complete that particular CEU

is it perfect ? no.... there are miles and miles and miles to go... but the first steps are being taken... you can help - by searching out these practioners and making yourself a patient in their practice ..a bunch of homeopathic medicine is preventive medicine vs. treat the symptom medicine (another horrible truth of popular modern medicine) - its these "early bird" practioners to whom the profiteers and legislators and insurance companies have an eye trained... as was mentioned early on in this convo, if there's a profit to be made, the moneymakers will arrive! with laws in hand and goods to peddle....
_________________
" The sorcerers in life are created within each of us" --- Lynn V. Andrews

Post Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:32 pm 
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