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Peace vs. Violence
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chordphrute



Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane
Peace vs. Violence

... Why is it that we, as human beings, have not risen to stand against those who prefer violence to peace? Why is it that the U.N. has not created a world-wide ban against large weaponry, therefore eliminating the nuclear scare world-wide?

... That is.. why do we stand idly and watch our fellow beings destroy each other?

Post Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:37 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny
Re: Peace vs. Violence

quote:
Originally posted by chordphrute:
... Why is it that we, as human beings, have not risen to stand against those who prefer violence to peace? Why is it that the U.N. has not created a world-wide ban against large weaponry, therefore eliminating the nuclear scare world-wide?

... That is.. why do we stand idly and watch our fellow beings destroy each other?


I would trust the UN about as far as I could throw the building they gather in.

First of all the UN has no real power in other countries and thank all the gods for that. I would not want the General Secretary of the UN running a "one world order".

We as human being have risen time and again to stand against violence. We have risen many times throughout history to fight the opressors of the weak and those who could not defend themselves. As individuals many do it everyday. I wish more would.

Some people are born into violence. Raised in the middle of it and for their very short life that is all they know.

But what is the key to change?

Children...that is where it all starts on both ends of the spectrum.

Your last question made me shake my head...
Have you watched the news lately? Have you seen protests calling for the United States to pull out of Iraq? Have you heard people saying that the United States had no business "invading" another nation? On and on and on people scream and shout for the United States to get out.

Yes...most people think it was all about the oil...like I have said before...I could care less about the oil. To me Iraq is not about oil. That sorry blanking scum was murdering his own people by the hundreds, thousands and tens of thousands and he was never going to stop unless he was forcibly removed. The UN knew what he was doing and they had known it for years before the invasion of Kuwait but they did not make that bastard stop. Even though the lives saved can never be known. Lives have been lost from many countries in Iraq and many many more Iraqi lives have been lost but that bastard will never torture and murder again. Screw the oil.

Until we as human being can learn to live together in peace there will never be total peace. Being kind, generous and compassionate toward others no matter what is said behind your back or to your face shows the true nature of peace. Giving and asking nothing in return. Forgiving when nothing can be returned. These all promote peace. Keeping that peace takes strength. Strength of charactor, body, mind and spirit and in some cases a big stick.

Those were just thoughts off the top of my head...I could write about this for days and still find things to say but at the moment I have a lot of other stuff to do.

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
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All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:19 am 
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Mdm Prez



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1536
Location: U.S. of A.
chord

We have, as a nation, not stood by and watched others destroy. Perfect example is Iraq. We are there to take down a dictator who killed his own and would stretch his tentacles to other nations sooner or later. Yet, our people have objected to our being there.

As to the UN, it's a worthless body and I hope the U.S. withdraws.

Cat
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you're not asking the right questions.

Post Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:15 pm 
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realwoman



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: under our tree in Africa


Well, i guess we all can look forward for the US of A to be invading North Korea, which really has weapons of mass destruction, and Zimbabwe, which has an evil crazy dictator, and Darfur, where the government is killing their own ppl by the hundreds of thousands....

But wait, none of these countries have oil, or other resources US companies could make money of, so maybe we should not be holding our breaths...
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light is to darkness as love is to fear...

Post Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:51 pm 
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realwoman



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: under our tree in Africa
Re: Peace vs. Violence

quote:
Originally posted by chordphrute:
... Why is it that we, as human beings, have not risen to stand against those who prefer violence to peace? Why is it that the U.N. has not created a world-wide ban against large weaponry, therefore eliminating the nuclear scare world-wide?

... That is.. why do we stand idly and watch our fellow beings destroy each other?


Answer to your question, chordy?
M O N E Y
and
G R E E D.


The UN indeed HAS created such a ban, the USA is the biggest power to ignore it. After WW II, the Geneva Contention was adopted and signed by all countries worldwide, and yet, is blatantly ignored by the USA. The prisoners in Guatanemo Bay is one example.

There are talks that the USA should be taken to the World Court in The Hague, just like former Bosnian dictators, for this and other breaches of treaties signed by the US, but now ignored.

There will be Peace if countries keep their word, has the integrity to stand by the signatures of their predecessors, and stop being greedy.
_________________
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light is to darkness as love is to fear...

Post Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:00 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Real,

Lets say the United states pulled it’s military out of every country are in and brought them home and stopped supplying billions of dollars per year in aid to countries around the world and tells everyone…“If you have needs or are threatened militarily or otherwise. Don’t call us and we will not call you.”

Would you prefer that?

Sometimes I think I would prefer that my adopted country did that. Like right now.

You know what. I am not proud of everything this country does within it’s own borders or in other countries. I know it is not perfect and from time to time it slips and slides. This government is not perfect by far and neither are the people of this country but there are few if any other countries on this planet that pour as much financial, food or medical aid into other countries than the government and people of the United States of America every single year.

People may point their fingers at Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, North Korea or any place they wish and say…“The United States did this wrong here and did that wrong there”. You would probably be right that things were done wrong here and there for whatever reason. Those things should be noted and looked into and people should be held accountable if wrongdoing is found.

But do you want to know what irritates me…I do not have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times in a month that I hear people run down the United States for what it does around the world and I cannot count on one hand the number of times in a year I hear people praise the United States for the good things this country does let alone all the good the people of this country do for other people around the world.

When someone cries out for help and the United States rushes in you hear people scream and yell and when the United States stands on the sideline people still scream and yell. When money, medicine or food are sent…people scream and yell and wonder why more was not sent. When troops are sent people scream and yell…when those troops are kept at home people scream and yell.

Yeah maybe my adopted country should do just that…stay at home…it does not matter what it does people scream and yell. Perhaps it is time for it to put on some earmuffs and let North Korea, China and all the other countries like them have their way with the rest of the world.

Am I happy the United States is in Iraq? No
I would have preferred they just kill Saddam Hussein and all those responsible for the torture and murder of hundreds of thousands of people and been done with it but that did not happen.

“There are talks that the USA should be taken to the World Court in The Hague, just like former Bosnian dictators, for this and other breaches of treaties signed by the US, but now ignored.”

Would you mind listing those treaties the United States is in breach of? (Excluding the Native American Treaties)
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All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:28 am 
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Dark prism



Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 865
Location: California Dreamin, baby.


Hypothetical question.

If a bunch of people who don't know each other very well are standing in a room, and each person has something that someone else wants, and each also has a gun, who is the first to lay down their gun?

And then what happens?


Dp
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Post Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:24 am 
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Mdm Prez



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1536
Location: U.S. of A.
Eire

GIVES EIRE A STANDING OVATION



Cat

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you're not asking the right questions.

Post Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:46 pm 
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Mdm Prez



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1536
Location: U.S. of A.
Eire

Points of information:

U.S. is the largest portfolio invester in South Africa.

U.S. is the 2nd largest source of foreign direct investment in South Africa after U.K.

Total U.S. foreign direct investment at the outset of 2005 to South Africa was 5 Billion dollars.

700 U.S. companies have a presence in South Africa aiding to its economy.

And through all of this and so much more, we are not interested in South Africa's oil.

Mdm Prez
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If you're not getting the answers you want,
you're not asking the right questions.

Post Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:34 pm 
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realwoman



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: under our tree in Africa


Eire, firstly, may I ask why you want breaches of treaties against nativie Americans excluded? Is it because it is a known fact that the US of A has systematically violated 371 treaties it concluded with Native American Peoples in wanton disregard of the basic principle of public international law and practice ( http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/386.html )?
Well, in exactly the same manner as the Treaties with so-called ‘native Americans’ were and are being violated, so are International treaties being violated by the US of A. When I googled ‘ international treaties breached violated by USA , I had almost 700 000 hits. I can’t make a better list than the one already made by West Point Graduates, here: http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/laws_and_treat%C4%B1es_violated_by_pr.htm. This link will not only provide you with a list of International laws and treaties violated in the current war with Iraq, it also indicates why this war is against the USA Constitution. Violated international treaties listed here include:
The Hague Convention on Land Warfare of 1899, which was reaffirmed by the U.S. at the 1946 Nuremberg International Military Tribunals.
Resolution on the Non-Use of Nuclear Weapons and Prevention of Nuclear War, adopted UN General Assembly, Dec 12, 1980.
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide; December 9, 1948, Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the UN General Assembly.
Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, adopted on August 12, 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War.
Convention on the Prohibition of Military or any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification Techniques, 1108 U.N.T.S. 151, Oct. 5, 1978.
The Charter of the United Nations.
The Nuremberg Principles on crimes against humanity and peace, as well as war crimes

It is not only in the current war in Iraq that treaties are violated, or that the US of A has been found guilty by the International Court of Justice.

The Republic of Nicaragua v. The United States of America was a case heard in 1986 by the International Court of Justice that found that the United States had violated international law by supporting Contra guerrillas in their war against the Nicaraguan government and by placing mines in Nicaragua's harbours. The court stated that the US was "in breach of its obligations under customary international law not to use force against another State", "not to intervene in its affairs", "not to violate its sovereignty", "not to interrupt peaceful maritime commerce", and "in breach of its obligations under Article XIX of the Treaty of Friendship, Commerce and Navigation between the Parties signed at Managua on 21 January 1956."

The Federal Republic of Germany brought proceedings against the United States of America before the International Court of Justice. Germany maintained that the USA had violated its binding obligations under Article 36 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations (VCCR). On 27 June 2001, the ICJ issued its historic judgement in the LaGrand Case. By 14 votes to one, the Court found that the United States had ''breached its obligations to Germany under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations,'' If for no other reason, the USA must fully respect and enforce the consular rights of detained foreign nationals in order to protect those selfsame rights of its own citizens abroad. http://www.internationaljusticeproject.org/nationalsLaGrande.cfm

Islamic Republic of Iran v. United States of America was a case brought to the International Court of Justice and it delivered its Judgement on 6 November 2003. In its Judgement, which is final, without appeal and binding on the Parties, the Court finds first, by fourteen votes to two, that "the actions of the United States of America against Iranian oil platforms on 19 October 1987 and 18 April 1988 cannot be justified as measures necessary to protect the essential security interests of the United States of America under Article XX, paragraph 1 (d), of the 1955 Treaty of Amity, Economic Relations and Consular Rights between the United States of America and Iran, as interpreted in the light of international law on the use of force".

Furthermore, here: http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9310/0233.html, it is clear that the US of A has contravened the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and the 1948 Convention for Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide by their illegal occupation and annexation of Hawaii. Since Hawaiians are not 'recognised' as native Americans, this is a good example of how greed causes breaching of International Treaties.

For general interest, since this has been brought into this discussion, but are not really relevant, it is notable that South Africa (fortunately, it would seem) does not have large resources of oil, but does have gold, diamonds, platinum, manganese (without which the US will not have any stainless steel) and other mineral wealth resources. The American companies ‘investing ‘ in South Africa are mainly investing in these resources, causing large scale pollution and degradation of our land and water resources to the benefit of their shareholders living in luxury, elsewhere. For the past 5 years, exports from SA into the USA far exceeded imports, and more than 70% of these exports are in minerals and metals: http://www.agoa.info/?view=country_info&country=za&story=trade

More often than not, any ‘aid’ by the “North" comes with a payback price tag… watch the movie ‘Constant Gardener’, and you will have a small inkling of what I am talking about.

To address chordy's question, and DP’s hypothetical one, the UN indeed HAS created a ban on nuclear, biological, and other means of warfare, but the USA ignores it, and if the 'superpower' ignores it, the other countries have to have the means to defend themselves. The room with people who has stuff others want…? The one with the biggest weapon will get what the others have…

In a different thread, elsewhere, I challenged people to question what they are told…and not to merely believe it, because the government says it. Coming from a country with a chequered history, that was a hard lesson to learn here… and I see the same thing currently happening in the USA what happened in South Africa in the 1970’s. It is called ‘blind patriotism’. I am very patriotic, but the history of my country have taught me to not to be blind to the mistakes of the current government of my country… and it is my patriotic duty as a citizen to point out these mistakes.

To truly find the way to world peace, people have to learn to question the motives of their governments decisions, because it is NOT always for their ‘own good’.

I lay down the challenge again… ask WHY WHY WHY… and don’t be satisfied with the answers provided by Fox News.

IRMC

~real
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light is to darkness as love is to fear...

Post Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:06 pm 
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Mdm Prez



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1536
Location: U.S. of A.
Eire

Withdraws from the conversation in this thread as it is no longer an informed discussion or respectful debate.

Great start chord.

Mdm Prez
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If you're not getting the answers you want,
you're not asking the right questions.

Post Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:52 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


quote:
Originally posted by Dark prism:
Hypothetical question.

If a bunch of people who don't know each other very well are standing in a room, and each person has something that someone else wants, and each also has a gun, who is the first to lay down their gun?

And then what happens?


Dp


The first to lay down their gun is the first one that dies.

however the first to start a conversation and make friends could be the first one to talk someone else in joining them in laying down their guns together.
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:14 pm 
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chordphrute



Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane


Ladies,
First, thank you all for replying to this post with such ardor. I think perhaps everyone who is currently on this topic has had such a vastly different background and it is a perfect illustration of just why our world has the issues that it does.

I admit that perhaps I am not erudite enough to know anything other than the basic functionality of the United Nations, as such this question was posed. Eire, you are absolutely right in that they have no real power. Marie and I were talking about this the other day, in fact. However, when one steps back and takes away the weapons from the hands of those we consider as ‘having power’, we are left with many nations on an intellectually equal footing and the UN seems to stand in the midst of it all as if it is the witch luring Hansel and Gretel into the cabin with slowly-curling fingertips. That is, I don’t mean to make them out in a negative sense, however if we all were indeed on an equal footing, the idea of one world organization speaks from a military standpoint alone seems to make sense. You’re right in that realistically they have no power. The UN makes resolutions and hands them out to countries who in turn use them as paper weights for their more imperative dealings, regardless of the area of discussion.

To answer your question, no I have not watched the news lately. I type in ‘cnn.com’ once a day and read more when I get a moment. Perhaps the fact that I do not ‘keep up’ with every worldly issue of the time is justification enough for me to retract the questions I posed in the first place.

I want to post this now because I have to leave the office, but I will be home soon and will respond more completely.


Gassho

Post Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:11 pm 
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chordphrute



Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 1412
Location: Nouvelle Orléans, Louisiane


(To continue…)


To you, it is not about the oil. I get that Saddam was a dick. I get that he all but completed acts of genocide but consider this - The RPC (China) is eradicating Tibetans and has been doing so since the Chinese invasion decades ago. Why aren’t we stepping into Tibet to help a peaceful unarmed nation regain their strength. It is for one reason alone - Tibet has no oil or weapons and therefore we have no claim there, despite the Tibetans themselves begging for help. Has Iraq begged for help? Hardly - but we're there. With that said, I can only conclude that yes... it is about the oil. The UN has completed various resolutions in an attempt to get China to pull out of Tibet, but nothing has been done and the reason is because the worlds’ superpowers (mainly the US in this instance) have chosen to do nothing about it. Why? No money is involved…


Cat – you are absolutely right and yet somehow, I look at our own country – specifically at my own starving city among others, and wonder if 1% of that 5-billion dollars being spent on the Iraq war could be better spent on our own land. Peace starts at home…. I am the biggest advocate on the planet of the following phrase to the point where it will probably be my epitaph… how can you help others if you can not even help yourself? Our country is a perfect example of that. Why are we putting all of our resources elsewhere when here at home, things are crumbling before our eyes.

Real… to quote you here:
Well, i guess we all can look forward for the US of A to be invading North Korea, which really has weapons of mass destruction, and Zimbabwe, which has an evil crazy dictator, and Darfur, where the government is killing their own ppl by the hundreds of thousands....

But wait, none of these countries have oil, or other resources US companies could make money of, so maybe we should not be holding our breaths...


… I could not agree more. They are more examples of “Tibet” like I named above…there are peaceful nations in this world being destroyed by dictatorships and off-the-wall governments that could use our help far more than Iraq…. The US gov’t wants the world to think they are a peace-faring people and it is as if they are hanging a billboard above our heads saying “We will help your country ….as long as there’s money involved for us”. …

Gassho

Post Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:04 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


quote:
Originally posted by realwoman:
Eire, firstly, may I ask why you want breaches of treaties against nativie Americans excluded?


Because it is what I asked for and I wanted you to list them for discussion instead of just making a blatant statement that suggests the United States is the only country in violation of its treaties. Everyone knows the United States broke treaties with as you said "so-called Native Americans” and I wanted to keep the discussion leaning in the direction of where charges have been pressed in international court and leaning toward your reference to the international court and then do my best to redirect the discussion back to the original topic of why we as human beings do not rise up against those who want violence…not peace instead of…hmm…thinking of a nice way to say it…dislike for America and the policies of it’s government.

That was my original intent for asking that question but as I look at a long list of other countries that have broken treaties and international law that were never mentioned and never will be because discussing the fact that many other countries have violated treaties and/or international law does not make it right for the United States or any other country to do it. I realize this discussion (about treaties and international law) would be good for another thread sometime in the future but it only detracts from real topic of this thread.

With that said I will say this…I know and admit that the United States has violated treaties as well as international law. My point is why does the world focus on the pin points where the United States makes a mistake (knowingly or unknowingly) but never where the country does good things to help other countries and promote peace. That is not only the way it is with the United States but with any country that someone else does not like.
By human nature most people will always focus on the negative things that someone does of whom they do not like.
By human nature people who like someone will focus on the positive things.
People who like someone and really knows them know what the negatives are but they also see the good in that person.

You put your main focus on the United States and its many faults with only a minor mention of what happened in your own country. I will admit that a lot of that came in response to my statements and questions for you. It is a fact that many countries pour billions of dollars of aid into the countries of Africa and other nations every year. On top of that billions upon billions of dollars are funneled into these countries by aid organizations, companies and individuals from around the world to provide agricultural aid, food, medical supplies and much more every year. All of this aid from countries and aid organizations for the most part is free of charge and asking of nothing in return. Hundreds of people go into countries that are in turmoil never to return because they went to help provide food, medicine or teach someone how to farm and these people went in the name of compassion and peace. What has happened in South Africa and indeed all of Africa could have been used to make a very good point for peace instead of violence. The people in these countries have been exploited for centuries and they have had enough and are fighting back but in most cases it seems the wrong people end up in charge and try to form their own little dictatorship and start exploiting their own people for their own gains. This leads to further turmoil and distrust which leads to more fighting and war.

It is natural for countries to invest in other countries where there are resources that are needed. The United States, Japan, Spain and many other countries have loaned money to other countries and forgiven those loans to the tune of close to 1 trillion dollars. Why? To help keep the economies of those countries on at the very least a wobbly footing instead of collapsing which would possibly lead to internal strife within those countries and in turn lead to civil unrest and possible hostile actions within those countries…in a way this promotes peace. In many cases the economic powers of the world loan money to other countries and while some loans are never forgiven they are also never paid back and sometimes they are never asked to be paid back. Are there times when conditions are added…sure there are and you cannot even go the bank and ask for a loan without conditions but there are many many times when countries including the United States provide money to other countries with no strings attached and nothing ever asked in return.

Ladies...we may not see eye to eye on everything for various reasons but I love these discussions we have Smile
Hugs you all mmmmm
Eiregirl Arrow
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:13 am 
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