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What are your thoughts - ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny
What are your thoughts - ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

I have a question for everyone that I would like your perspective on.

As everyone here knows, at least the ones I frequently talk to or have read my profile, I am from Ireland but currently live in the United States. We regularly visit my family in Ireland at least every other year and sometimes more and I talk to them on the phone at least once a week and email back and forth just about everyday. Don’t worry I am getting to the question Smile

I know for a fact (from what I have read and the people I have talked to) that in Ireland illegal immigration is not a major problem. That is not to say that it does not happen because it does but it is a very minor problem.

From friends I have talked to in various countries such as Great Britain, Spain, France and Germany the problem is more serious. I have read articles and some available government documents on proposed immigration changes that support what people have told me about the problem of illegal immigration in their countries.

Here in the United States many people view illegal immigration as a major problem with myself being one of those people.

In some countries “amnesty” has been proposed as a solution to the problem. I do not see that as a solution especially when nothing is done to correct the problem and keep it from happening again.

Now my question (or questions) is:

Do you think illegal immigration is a problem in your country?
What are your thoughts about illegal immigration in your country?
If you think it is a problem then what would be an acceptable solution to illegal immigration in your country?

I am in the process of preparing my thoughts on this and will post them later but for now I will say this.

I am a legal citizen and find it to be a slap in the face when the government proposes “amnesty” for people who sneak into the country. I followed the process to become a legal citizen and in some ways I feel those who do not follow the established process cheapen what I did to become a citizen. Please do not let my thoughts on that deter you from suggesting it because there are some good arguments for “amnesty”. I just don’t like it and while I may state the benefits of it when I post my thoughts I will never agree with it.
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All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:25 pm 
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cupcakes



Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 324
Location: NY


Dear Eire,

I think I remember you posting on this topic before. As you already know, I hate talking about politics, especially with you, since I almost always feel the need to take the opposite stance. And I hate taking a stance at all because I feel talking about "illegal immigration" in a general sense makes all the individual and very personal situations invisible.

most of my friends are born outside the US, including my best friend from belarus, my gf from iraq and my circle of friends growing up from india, china, romania etc. I was born here, but my parents are both naturalized citizens from HK. All these immigrations have been legal (or in the process).

I have a lot of respect for people who go through the process of becoming citizens, as you have, and I think most of my friends who have done that also feel the same as you do about "those who sneak into the country."

I agree that illegal immigration is a problem, but I think the real problem is with the "established process," and you are directing your anger in the wrong place.
Those who "sneak in" don't do it that way just to spite you, there may be a zillion different reasons why they feel they have to.

I have no proposed solutions--as long as the US is a superpower nation it is perceived as the place of opportunity and thirdworlders will try to get in. And elitists who are already here will want to keep them out. In my ideal world there would be no such thing as political borders. But in my ideal world there would also be no such thing as poverty or jealousy and the streets would be made of chocolate and sunshine dust.
I do think that the naturalization process should be less difficult.


Rolling Eyes cuppy

Post Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:44 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Illegal immigration, what exactly is it?

Illegal immigration is a term used to describe how people move from one country to another without going through the proper legal process of becoming a citizen of the country they have moved to.

Looking back through history you can see where people have immigrated from one country to another without to much difficulty or any serious repercussions. They were able to do that mainly because at that time there were few records of who anyone was and as long as they spoke the language and/or were a benefit to the society there were no problems. That is basically the way it is today with the exception of better record keeping and the “easy” movement from one country to another. Those two things have changed drastically over time and continue to change.

I wish to make it very clear that I have no problem with anyone who makes it from one country to another legally and the only problem I have with those who make it illegally is the fact that they did it illegally.

My biggest concern is not so much that there are illegal immigrants that move from their country to another but with the countries that do not protect their borders and thereby do not protect their own citizens and in today’s world that is or should be a very major concern to everyone. I know why people move from one country to another illegally and understand their reasons and I have compassion for them. The vast majority only want to make a better life for themselves and their families. I also know that while they do good work and do it cheaply which helps some people and hurts others. I could rattle off all kinds of statistics and facts dealing with the pros and cons of illegal immigration on economies but I will forgo that at this time and deal with my major concern which should be the major concern for everyone…if a family of illegal immigrants can cross your border undetected what is to keep a group of terrorists from doing the exact same thing? Hmmm

Ohh wait…they have done that

While there are many countries around the world that have problems with illegal immigration the United States probably has the worst problem with an estimated current illegal population of…no one honestly knows…it is estimated that there are between 10 and 20 million. Each year over 1 million illegal immigrants are caught by the United states border patrol. Over 1 million caught…and there is absolutely no way of knowing exactly how many are not caught.

What can be done?

Well there are many things that can be done.
Make hiring illegal immigrants very unfavorable...stiff fines and jail time for employers.

Increase border security. The United States has over 8000 miles of land border. With 1,440,000,000 dollars we could place 32,000 border agents along the borders of Canada and Mexico and pay them 45,000 dollars a year (but they currently make less than that). That is a border agent every 1320 feet…quarter mile. With another 940 million dollars we could provide each of them with a 30,000 vehicle to drive. With another billion dollars a year we could pay 31,250 a year in healthcare for each of them every single year. That is 3,380,000,000 dollars a year…we cold throw in another 1,620,000,000 for training, clothing, and other equipment per year and make it an even 5 billion a year.

Remove the “anchor baby” incentive. (I am not sure I agree with this one or not but it has come up several times in discussions with some friends of mine) That is when an illegal immigrant has a baby in the United States which makes the baby an automatic US citizen. There are over 300 thousand babies born each year in the United States to illegal immigrants which makes those babies automatic citizens of the United States. The American taxpayer pays the majority (over 80%) of the hospital bill. Many illegal immigrants think this allows the parents to stay legally…that is absolutely not true. The only benefit to this is that the child is a US citizen and when the child turns 21 they can sponsor members of their family as long as their income is at least twice the poverty level income.

Now that we have done something to protect the border and decrease the two major incentives for illegal immigrants to come into the country we can look at ways to make immigration somewhat easier.

How can we make it easier?
That is the hard part because we do not want to allow terrorists or other criminals into the country. That is one reason it is hard to make the process easier. People keep saying “make it easier for them to come here” but few of them have any idea’s on how to do that. Every day the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service processes over 30,000 applications for immigration benefits and conduct nearly 150,000 background checks. The USCIS welcomes over 2000 new citizens and 200 new refugees every day. This takes manpower and money. There are 130 application support centers where the vast majority of this work is performed and all of this work is performed by around 15000 employees.

One way to improve the process would be to streamline it and add additional personnel but we cannot and must not cutback on security. Make the requirements for entry into the country clear and straightforward so that any confusion will be minimal. Make it very clear that the identity of the applicant must be verifiable or the application will be denied (which is already the case but in many cases it is not clear to the applicant). Like I said…making the process easier is the hard part.
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All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:50 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Cuppy Smile I always love discussions with you no matter what the topic is.
Hugs you tight mmmmmmmm you’re a sweetie

“I think I remember you posting on this topic before.”
I remember talking about this here before but I can’t find any post I made that talked about immigration directly.

“As you already know, I hate talking about politics, especially with you, since I almost always feel the need to take the opposite stance.”
I am sorry you feel you have to take an opposite stance but I love talking about anything Smile

“I hate taking a stance at all because I feel talking about "illegal immigration" in a general sense makes all the individual and very personal situations invisible.”
If you do not want to talk about this in a general sense then lets narrow it down somewhat to an individual and personal level…I have lots of horror stories I could tell along with lots of wonderful stories.

Like you, I have a lot of friends all over the world…personal friends many of which I have known since childhood and I have a lot of friends here in the US that have immigrated from other countries legally and the majority of them feel the same way I do about illegal immigrants who “sneak” in.

“I agree that illegal immigration is a problem, but I think the real problem is with the "established process," and you are directing your anger in the wrong place.
Those who "sneak in" don't do it that way just to spite you, there may be a zillion different reasons why they feel they have to.”

I do agree that the “established process” for immigration into the United States has problems and needs to be streamlined to make it faster and easier but in making it faster and easier we do not want to degrade the security aspects of the process which is the part of the process that takes the longest. The background checks need to be done…period. I do not want anymore terrorists or criminals making it into this country if at all possible. I don’t know where you think my anger is being directed…I don’t think my anger is being directed in the wrong place and I did not know I was showing any anger but I will tell you where my disgust is directed. My disgust is being directed toward the government for not taking steps to alleviate the problems with illegal immigration and my disgust is being directed toward people who do not think this is any major problem here or in other countries. My disgust is directed toward people who think I have no sympathy or compassion for people who are only trying to improve their own lives. My disgust is directed toward people who would willingly grant citizenship “amnesty” to people they don’t know one damned thing about and there have been proposals for types of “amnesty” where no background checks would be conducted on illegal immigrants already in the country and thank goodness those were blown out of the water.

I have no problem with anyone wanting to move from one country to another…hell I did it but at least I did it legally. At least I did not sneak across the border with a bomb to blow up a train station. At least I did not fraudulently enter the country to fly a plane into a building. At least I did not slip across the border at night and then demand that I have the same rights and privileges that every other citizen of the country has.

There are economic benefits and drawbacks to illegal immigration and that is of some concern but that is not my major concern and yes I know the reasons most people cross borders illegally and I understand those reasons but if I were you or anyone else reading this…those are not the people I would be worrying about. The ones you should worry about are the ones who want to see you dead, the ones who bring illegal drugs into the country, the ones who would enslave you (yes slavery still exists and they don’t care what your race is).

Hugs you tight
Eiregirl Arrow
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All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:38 am 
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realwoman



Joined: 05 Dec 2005
Posts: 1040
Location: under our tree in Africa


mmmmmmm..... immigration, legal or illegal....

Eire, the bottom line of your question is this... the REASON for whether an action is regarded as legal or illegal... The reason WHY there is a law that controls immigration. The reason WHY we need laws, any law, for that matter. I have this standard line I use in a lot of my lectures: " ...some problems could potentially affect both public health and resources, which are public goods, and the control of these potential problems is therefore a regulatory requirement, since the taxpaying society must be protected from such problems through action by the government they elected.

So, immigration laws are there to protect the taxpaying citizens of a country against....uhm... what?? Overpopulation? Competition for jobs? Stealing your water? Or your oil?

Then, is the US of A not having double standards? Controlling immigration, why they themselves are all illegal immigrants in the first place, apart from what you call 'native americans'... and still continue to be... Currently illegally 'immigrating' into Iraq, which had NOTHING to do with 911, but they successfully spinned it as such to the American public to justify their 'illegal immigration', with military power, to steal the oil of the Iraqi people?

Which is worse? Ppl crossing your border without going through 'legal processes' who are not going to affect your life at all, since they are not going to take your job, or ppl crossing other borders illegally (against international law for that matter, eg the Geneva Convention) to go and 'appropriate' resources that rightfully does not belong to them?

Love to hear your thoughts...

Hugs,
~real
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light is to darkness as love is to fear...

Post Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:51 am 
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Mdm Prez



Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1536
Location: U.S. of A.
Eire

I am the granddaughter of immigrants. Both sets of my grandparents emigrated to America from Ireland. My grandfather would tell the story how he 'thought the streets were paved in gold' in America. They held menial jobs and worked hard. My grandmother was a maid to wealthy people who
'lived in a big brownstone on Broad Street' in Philadelphia. My grandfather stoked the fires at Temple Hospital in Philadelphia. He would walk the railroad tracks picking up coal to bring home for his own furnace to keep his family warm. They were proud Americans and paid their taxes anxiously, believe it or not. I've seen a photo of my grandfather saluting the American flag which lay draped over his son's coffin who died in the war. Yes, immigration can be a wonderful thing and produce loyal people who would never take a dime from the government, in fact it would be an embarrassment.

Yet, illegal immigration is another matter. I equate it with 'breaking and entering' someone's home. It's wrong. Eire has stated statistics that are staggering. Illegals are costing those of us that are citizens a fortune through their healthcare, education, food assistance and housing. Did you know that 23% of those in prison in California are illegal Mexican criminals? The cost alone of incarceration is outrageous. Yet, if we are caught illegally entering many countries, we are thrown in jail forever, it would seem.

I agree Eire, while we have to stem the tide of all illegals, we must worry about who of them wants Americans dead and America destroyed. I believe the wall between Mexico and the U.S. is critically important and needs to be accomplished immediately. It is not just Mexicans who are entering that way.

As to amnesty for those illegals already here, I think it's a disgrace. It smacks the face of those who have applied to enter America the lawful way. I heartily object to amnesty. Every illegal who is found must be deported.

I also believe in racial profiling in airports, etc. It may not be politically correct, but statistics show the profile of our enemies. Let's not beat around the bush.

Immigration has nothing to do with competition for jobs or overpopulation, let alone with stealing our water or oil. It's a privilege to enter this country and has to be treated as such. I belong to a national business consortium and there are more jobs in the U.S. than people to fill them. Those jobs are at every level. It is a serious problem.

As to the U.S. 'currently illegally immigrating into Iraq', that is simply not true. We have helped to form a government, set up schools, aided in giving WOMEN the right to vote for the first time. We are not looking to govern. And, we have not stolen a drop of their oil. In fact, we have never governed other nations with which we were at war. Also, our entering Iraq was not spun here in the U.S. that it had anything to do with 911 whatsoever. It was because of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship and the threat of weapons of mass destruction. 911 was never even a facet of the reason for us being in Iraq.

Cat
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you're not asking the right questions.

Post Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:41 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Real,
Thank you very much for the response and for your thoughts on this topic and you asked some good questions that I will try to answer although I may not answer them directly but I hope I can provide some insight from my point of view.

I would like to hear what effects immigration or emigration has on your country and whether or not there is problem with illegal immigration in your country…I have not been able to find much information on it at the library or on the internet.

“Then, is the US of A not having double standards? Controlling immigration…”
What control? Yes there is control on “legal immigration” every country controls its own legal immigration but there is no control or very little control on illegal immigration.

To me…I would love to live on the same world cuppy would like to live on…a world without lines drawn in the sand and a person on the other side of the line saying, “no…you cannot cross this line”. I would like to live on a world where I would not have to see the looks on some peoples faces as I walk down the street holding Debs hand. I would like to live on a world where everyone is treated equally no matter their race, religion or nationality but sadly that is not the world we live on. It would be nice though to live on that world if only for a single day.

Laws…hmmm…some of them are so stupid like one in Switzerland that says you cannot hang you clothes out to dry on Sunday.

We live on a world that has laws…some we may think are stupid, outdated and of absolutely no use anymore if they ever had a use to begin with.

Every country I know of has laws regarding immigration and they have these laws for various reasons but the main reason is and always has been…money. If they know you exist they can collect taxes from you. That was, is, always has been and always will be the main driving force behind the laws of immigration. Following close on the heels of money is the ability to regulate and control who is allowed into your country.

Throughout most of Irelands history it has not had a problem with immigration…its problem has been emigration. That is to say that historically Ireland has had a problem with people leaving the country instead of coming into the country. Until the 1990’s there were very few years were Ireland had more people immigrate to the country than it had people leave the country. That is not because Ireland is not a wonderful country (because it is and if you say different GRRRR). The main reason behind this…you guessed it…economics…money. So if you were to think that Irelands immigration laws are a little more lax than say…the United States you would be right. Why? For the very reasons stated above. Ireland had the problem of people leaving the country while the United States has always had people wanting to come into the country. I am not saying that Ireland will take anyone who comes to its shores but the laws are different as they are for all countries and each country establishes its immigration laws to suit the needs of the country.

You asked, “So, immigration laws are there to protect the taxpaying citizens of a country against....uhm... what?? Overpopulation? Competition for jobs? Stealing your water? Or your oil?”

First lets look at why people emigrate from their home countries to other countries. Some do it for love, which is why I never moved back to Ireland when my family moved back. Others do it to escape persecution, to seek opportunity, to avoid starvation…in short they do it in hopes they will find something better than what they have. Is that wrong? No it’s not. It is not even wrong to seek those things by immigrating illegally. Most probably do not even like doing it illegally but from their perspective they have no choice.

Now to answer your questions we have to look at today’s world…I would love to delve into the historical aspects of this but that could take a lot of time so lets stick to the modern aspects for now. In today’s world and depending on the country every question you asked would be answered with a “yes”. Some countries have immigration laws to protect its taxpaying citizens and to gain new taxpaying citizens. Some countries only allow a set number of people to immigrate each year for various reasons. Some of those reasons are population based and based on “competition for jobs”. If you want to immigrate to China…you better have a specific skill that they need and want.

In the United States the first “immigration laws” were established in 1790 and have undergone continual change ever since based on the needs and views of the time period. Some of those laws by today’s standards were stupid and others served specific needs and desires. Today it is no different. The immigration laws are there to allow people to come into a country who can provide for themselves without adding a drain on the social services of the country and illegal immigrants do that…big time.

The statistic that Mdm gave about the percentage of illegal immigrants in the California penal system is actually a little “low” it is closer to 25% if not more depending on the source you use but you will never find anywhere that says it is lower than 23%.
Let me add some facts to Mdm’s fact.
In March 2000 Congress made public Department of Justice statistics. What do those statistics show?
From 1995 to 2000 the INS had released over 35,000 criminal illegal immigrants instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those 35,000+ went on to commit serious crimes. 1,800 of those criminal acts were violent crimes which included 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings.
You may thank the Supreme Court for forcing the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens in 2001. Those 3,000 illegal immigrants had been convicted collectively of 772 assault charges (of varying degrees of assault), 125 murders and 387 sex offenses.
Up to 33% of the U.S. federal prison population is composed of non-citizens, according to Federal Bureau of Prisons statistics ( I must admit that not all non-citizen prison inmates are illegal aliens).

Real…I can easily provide you with staggering statistics and factual provable numbers on what it costs the legal citizens of the United States to provide healthcare to illegal immigrants, what it costs to Americans to prosecute and incarcerate illegal immigrants, what it costs to educate them. Not to mention the costs to the families of their murder victims, rape victims and others. The numbers I gave above are 6 years old and they have only increased since then. This is only the tip of the iceberg of the dark side of illegal immigration in the United States. When all the costs of illegal immigration are added up from all the states and the federal government I can live with them but that does not mean I would like it but if the criminal aspect was not there it would certainly ease the frustration of illegal immigration for me. The numbers I do not want to live with are listed above and those people that I do not want here reside in the prisons of the United States…just think of the lives they have affected and those that live in the prisons are only the ones who have been caught. I know it would be hard and highly unlikely that illegal immigration would ever be completely stopped but a better job of trying to stop it is needed.

Yes this country that I now live in has an army in other countries and whether you agree with that or not is beside my point and while I may or may not agree with the reasons this country has sent its army into those countries I do agree with my own thoughts as to why they should be there and that too is beside my point. I could care less about the blanking oil.

Real…are you sure you want my thoughts? I have more Wink

I still wonder about the law on hanging out my laundry on Sunday….hmmm Laughing

Hugs you tight,
Eiregirl Arrow
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:12 am 
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Start Over



Joined: 02 Nov 2005
Posts: 222
Location: Somewhere in the cosmos


Hmmmmmmmmmm...I love discussions too Twisted Evil

First, I think there should be a moratorium on both illegal and legal immigration, so we can sort things out without more coming in everyday. That way we can concentrate on the 12 million or so illegals that are already here.

I'm sure not only 'good' people come through the border, but also 'bad' people. Quite frankly, I could care less if they're good OR bad—breaking the law is still breaking the law. The disease TB, which we thought had been eradicated in the US, is now coming back due to the conditions in which illegals live in before they come here. We also have an abundance of drugs and gangs, thanks to our friends south of the border. As they pass through peoples' private property, they litter, pee, and even poop on people's property.

I also agree that giving amnesty to illegals is a slap in the face to those who respected and followed our laws that govern how you can enter the country. If they want to come in, then go to the back of the line like everyone else.

Also, giving anchor babies citizenship is NOT a correct interpretation of the 14th Amendment. The part that bothers me is "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof..." They are not citizens, so they are not under the United States' jurisdiction, yes?

As people have pointed out elsewhere, the 19 hijackers had several driver's licenses from different states, but they were 'illegal'.

Also, I really wish we'd get over this political correctness and make a condition of citizenship assimilation. Learn English, learn our customs, learn our habits, or leave. One of the things that irked me during the recent 'protests' by illegals was the waving of the Mexican flag. If Mexico is so great, then why did you come here? Everything being in Spanish as well as English is really starting to piss me off. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Anyway, that's all I have for now.


Cheers
Start

Post Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:49 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Mdm,

Thank you very much for adding to this discussion and for you thoughts.

It is a sad state of affairs when the government of this country (mainly the president of the United States) keeps trying to force a form of "amnesty" which is what any immigration reform that allows current illegal immigrants to remain in this country. It does not matter what fines or whether they have to go back to their home country then reenter or not...it is amnesty period. In my opinion they should be sent back to their own country and not allowed to come back for at least 5 years. The government keeps talking about immigration reforms...screw the talking and the reforms...it is time to control the borders. We need secure borders first and foremost then we can start talking about immigration reforms.

Hugs Mdm,
Eiregirl Arrow
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All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:47 am 
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wallflower



Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 9
Location: Texas


I grew up in West Texas and a stone’s throw from the border. I remember the common sight of men, women, and even children, each and everyone clad in mismatched dirty clothes, making their way through the mesquite and cedar brush, off in the distance and among the cattle. They were illegals looking for water first, then asking for jobs of whoever owned the ranchland they happen to be traveling through.

Sometimes they would venture into the small town where I lived and if you saw them at the corner gas station they were quiet and would not make eye contact, but when that did happen there was always the same look, a sad mixture of uncertainty and humility. All this directed down at me, a very young and very white school girl.

This was life back then. Were they legal? No. Did the local ranchers provide back-breaking jobs and shanty accomodations for them, and then turn around and have lunch with the local judge and sheriff at the downtown café? Oh sure. They knew. We all knew. This was the quiet understanding and this was life for me many decades ago.

Should they ever be allowed to cross illegally? No, not at all. I’m still not too far from the border. Only now I am much older and I have young children of my own, and though I wish for a simpler time and a simpler problem of illegal crossing, and no matter how much I deny or how much I pretend, when I am driving a backroad and I look out into the distance and see that familiar movement through the cedar brush, I realize that there are those who can just as easily cross over and theirs may not be a simple need for water, and shelter and food, and a job of hard work for a puny, illegal wage.

I would be a fool to think that only the quiet and humble are wading the river and walking right into America illegally. This is such a different time, and no matter what is wrong with the US-of-A or what is right with the US-of-A, I can tell you that I simply want my children to sleep safely at night.

I do appreciate the wonderful discussions found on this forum, and thanks for listening to my perspective on all this. : )

Exclamation rachelle
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awakens the dirt,
and lifts the withered bloom to the sun again.

Post Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:21 am 
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LurkingAbout



Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 51


What's costing us money is being in Iraq. That's a whole different topic yes, but paying for health care ect for immigrants. doesn't compare to the billions we've spent in Iraq. We will never stop the enemies from being inside our country, nor will we ever stop immigrants entering illegally. We can contain it both issues to a minimum. What does that do for us? Other than having to ability to say, " We kick people out of our country who come here to recieve a better life." Good for whoever recieves pride out of that!!

But does it really affect us and our daily life? Other than paying for them to be here, but what don't we pay for? I honestly believe they come here for a better life, can you blame them? Who cares if they are illegal. America is just a name for a piece of land, just like any other country. We stole the land from someone else, but that's ok right? But when someone else wants to enter this land because they werent blessed with the things "America" has, they are told to leave. To me it's just a never ending power struggle. Who is anyone to tell another what to do? Seriously? But that's the way it is, and yes we need laws and goverment to create a structure to live opon.

It be different if the majority came here to destroy what has been built, but that isn't the case. We came into this world with nothing, and we will leave with nothing.

Post Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:02 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Start,

Thank you for responding with your thoughts Smile

“I'm sure not only 'good' people come through the border, but also 'bad' people.”
That is a very true statement and there is no disputing the fact.

I don’t have a problem with anyone who is proud of their heritage. The United States is made up of people from many different countries with differing cultures. All of those varying cultures have in many ways integrated and formed in some respects the culture that is America. While I can understand and in many ways share your feelings about the protests you mention and I feel that if you are trying to show how proud you are to be in America and how much you want to become an American then waving your own national flag in a march is not the way to do it.

Once anyone…legal or otherwise crosses the borders into another country they are at that moment subject to the jurisdiction of that country and whatever local they are in. That is just the way it is and the way it should be otherwise they could legally break all the laws and suffer no legal repercussions. That is how you get the “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof…”. They were born within the limits and territory in which the United States holds jurisdiction.

The problem I have with the “anchor baby” concept is that many who enter the United States illegally and have a baby are under the misconception that they will become legal citizens also or that their petition to become a citizen will accelerated and that is just not true. The only benefit they receive from having a baby in the United States that could lead to citizenship will not take place until that child is 21 years old and able to sponsor someone for citizenship.

Start…thank you very much for participating in the discussion and please feel free to continue participating.

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:23 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Wallflower,

Thanks for sharing your prospective on this topic.

“I would be a fool to think that only the quiet and humble are wading the river and walking right into America illegally. This is such a different time, and no matter what is wrong with the US-of-A or what is right with the US-of-A, I can tell you that I simply want my children to sleep safely at night.”

That is very true.

Thank you and look forward to anything else you would like to add

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:24 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


LurkingAbout

Thank you very much for joining the discussion. Smile

“What's costing us money is being in Iraq. That's a whole different topic yes”

Yes that is a different topic.

“paying for health care ect for immigrants. doesn't compare to the billions we've spent in Iraq.”

Are you sure about that? On a year to year basis the money spent in Iraq is more than the money spent on healthcare, incarceration and education for illegal immigrants in the United States in any given year. Now if you want to compare numbers for the past 20 years, 30 years etc. then there is no doubt you would be wrong. I have some stuff prepared on that which I may post later but have been refraining from that because my biggest issue with this have nothing to do with money. Do not get me wrong…money and financial costs are an issue and if you would like to take this discussion in that direction then I will welcome you on it and would ask that you prepare your figures on what it costs the United States to be in Iraq annually and for the length of time the United states has been there and I will prepare my figures on what Illegal immigration has cost the American taxpayer. Over the long haul I have no doubt that illegal immigrants have cost the taxpayer more.

“We can contain it both issues to a minimum. What does that do for us? Other than having to ability to say, " We kick people out of our country who come here to recieve a better life." Good for whoever recieves pride out of that!!”

I agree that illegal immigration will never be completely stopped but it can sure as hell be greatly reduced and America could greatly benefit by keeping as many of the undesired criminal element out as possible and keeping that to a minimum would be very desirable to a lot of people and would have been desirable to a hell of a lot of people this past year who were murdered, raped, beaten or otherwise victimized by illegal immigrants. I would receive a great deal of pride knowing that fewer would be victimized in the future by better border security.

“But does it really affect us and our daily life? Other than paying for them to be here, but what don't we pay for? I honestly believe they come here for a better life, can you blame them? Who cares if they are illegal.”

I don’t think I would say those words around Darlene Squires who’s teenage daughter was raped by illegal immigrants (yes more than one) from El Salvador. I would not say them around the family of Adrienne Shelly who was murdered by an illegal immigrant. Rodney Johnsons family will never see him again because he was murdered by an illegal immigrant. Eugenio Sandoval who is an illegal immigrant was convicted in May of raping a 64 year old woman in Corpus Christi Texas…I wonder how she and her family feel. A 9 year old boy will never meet the love of his life because of an illegal immigrant from Honduras who buried an axe into the boys head for no reason at all. Can you tell me that illegal immigrants did not affect these peoples daily lives or the daily life of their family and friends? These are but a very few in a very long list. I could easily list hundreds of them and would not be close to the end of the list of murders, rapes and other violent crimes committed by illegal immigrants on American citizens. This does not even include the number of people affected by all the illegal drugs transported into the United States from other countries.

I know murder happens every day, rape happens everyday and all kinds of violent crimes happen everyday by illegal immigrants and legal citizens but those that have happened and will happen by illegal immigrants could have been and could be prevented simply by stopping them at the border. Could we stop them all? No, but if Eugenio Sandoval had been stopped that one have been one less violent crime committed against an elderly woman. Some of those crimes I mentioned above were committed by repeat offenders who would not have been allowed back into the United States legally and with better border protection some of them may have never gotten back into the United States. The cost of illegal immigration is much more than just money.

“America is just a name for a piece of land, just like any other country. We stole the land from someone else, but that's ok right? But when someone else wants to enter this land because they werent blessed with the things "America" has, they are told to leave. To me it's just a never ending power struggle. Who is anyone to tell another what to do? Seriously?”

Yes this country was formed by people who took the land from other people and yes that is how most if not all countries were formed. Today in every one of those countries there are laws for immigrating into that country and as long as people follow those laws and become a citizen of that country then nobody has the right to tell them to leave unless they break a law within that country that strips them of that citizenship. I am a very big advocate for peoples rights and will stand behind and argue for anyone who exercises those rights just as I would for anyone who immigrates legally and in some cases even for those who do it illegally but those cases will be very few and very dependent on what the situation is that made them be an illegal immigrant.

Let me propose a very hypothetical situation to you. Smile It is very hypothetical LOL Laughing
You are “Martian” and I’m “Venetian”. You live on a world that is very prosperous. Your economy is sound and jobs are plentiful. It is just a wonderful world you live on and everything is great. I am sitting at my telescope one night looking at your world and I tell all my friends how wonderful it looks and that if we went there it would be a great life. My friends tell their friends and they tell others and before you know it there are hundreds of thousands and then millions of us Venetians wanting to go to Mars. We get into our spaceships and before you know it you have millions of us poor people from Venus landing on your world. Some of us are hard working and take jobs that most of your people do not want to do. Some of us find ways to “steal” money from your government by fraudulently getting money from your social programs. Some of us bring tons of illegal drugs with us. Some of us break into your house and steal your things. Some of us commit violent crimes against your citizens…and it goes on. Now do you really want us on your world?

The spectrum of humanity is reflected in illegal immigrants just as much as it is with anyone else. There are some who are the best people you could ever hope to meet just as there are those you pray you will never meet.

I know the majority do not come here to hurt us in anyway. They only come here looking to improve there own lives and the lives of their families and I understand that. Some feel they have no other choice but to cross the border illegally. How am I to know that person crossing the border illegally is one of the good ones or the next person to try to hurt my family? Unless they go through the process of becoming a legal immigrant there is no way for me to know. I know the process can be slow and is slow…I have been through it. I know the process needs to be reformed to help streamline it and make it as fast and efficient as possible while improving the ability to weed out those who are known criminals. Those who come here and commit a crime (especially a violent crime) should never be allowed back into this country and if they do somehow make it back then they should be immediately sent back to their own country.

In 2002 Sister Helen Chaska was raped and murdered in Klamath Falls Oregon by Maximiliano Esparza. This man is a living illegal immigrant who is no serving a life sentence and resides in the Oregon penal system…he is alive and breathing while Sister Helen Chaska rests in her grave. This man was convicted in 1988 of robbery and kidnapping in California and released on probation. Esparza should have been deported when he was released from jail in 1992 but he was not and now Sister Chaska is dead…think about that and tell me it does not effect daily lives when an illegal immigrant crosses the border.

It is not only the good hardworking honest people who cross the borders of other countries.

LurkingAbout…I do appreciate your point of view and understand what you are saying I also look forward to further discussion.

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow Exclamation
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:50 am 
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LurkingAbout



Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 51


Eirgal, you said it yourself, violent crimes are commited by legal citizens and illegal immigrants. Yes, some could have been prevented by stopping them at the border. Nothing justifies killing or raping ect. But there are far more legal American citizens who commit those crimes on a daily bases and some do it over and over. Jail or no jail. Crime is inevitable. I would name names of American people whose life will never be the same because of another American, but what good does it do? It's double standard when we bash illegal immigrants about commiting crimes when our own damn people do the same thing every single day.


[quote]How am I to know that person crossing the border illegally is one of the good ones or the next person to try to hurt my family? Unless they go through the process of becoming a legal immigrant there is no way for me to know.[/quote]

Firstly, I happen to think the process is needed and should be there. But, how is making them go through it let you know if they will hurt your family or not? How would you even know if they went through a process of becoming legal? If someone wants to hurt someone else, they will do it regardless of being legal or not legal. How do you know the guy checking you out at the grocery store isn't going to hurt you? Or a co-worker. You don't and no one else does either.

Post Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:26 am 
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