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Gov't agency admits Twin Towers Collapse Unexplainable

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Phoenix
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Gov't agency admits Twin Towers Collapse Unexplainable

Gov't agency NIST Admits Total Collapse Of Twin Towers Unexplainable
Published on Tuesday, October 16, 2007.

The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

In a recent letter (PDF link) to 9/11 victim's family representatives Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine, NIST states, "We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse."

A 10,000 page scientific study only offers theories as to how the "collapse initiation" proceeded and fails to address how it was possible for part of a WTC structure to fall through the path of most resistance at freefall speed, completely violating the accepted laws of physics.

In addition, NIST's own studies confirmed that virtually none of the steel in either tower reached temperatures hotter than 500 degrees. The point at which steel weakens is 1000 degrees and melting point is reached at 1,500 degrees, according to NIST itself.

"NIST'S 10,000-page report purports to explain what it calls "collapse initiation" -- the loss of several floors' vertical support," writes Kevin Barrett of Scholars for 9/11 Truth. "In order to dream up this preposterous scenario, NIST had to ignore its own tests that showed that virtually none of the steel got hotter than 500 degrees f. It had to claim that somehow the planes took out many core columns, despite the fact that only a direct hit by an engine would have been likely to do so, and that the chances of this happening even once are fairly low. It had to preposterously allege that the plane that nicked the corner of the South Tower took out more core columns than the one that hit the North Tower almost dead center. It had to tweak all the parameters till they screamed bloody murder and say that the steel was far weaker than it actually was, the fire was far hotter than it actually was, the sagging was far greater than it actually was, and so on. And so NIST hallucinated a computer-generated fantasy scenario for "collapse initiation"--the failure of a few floors."

"But how do you get from the failure of a few floors to total collapse at free-fall speed of the entire structure? The short answer: You don't. Anyone with the slightest grasp of the laws of physics understands that even if all of the vertical supports on a few floors somehow failed catastrophically at exactly the same moment--a virtually impossible event, but one necessary to explain why the Towers would come straight down rather than toppling sideways--the top part of the building could not fall THROUGH the still-intact, highly robust lower part of the building, straight through the path of most resistance, just as fast as it would have fallen through thin air."

"Thus total free-fall collapse, even given NIST's ridiculous "initiation" scenario, is utterly impossible. The probability of it happening is exactly equal to the probability of the whole building suddenly falling upward and landing on the moon," concludes Barrett.

NIST have yet to properly address the sudden freefall collapse of WTC Building 7, which imploded on the late afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a jetliner.

~~~~~~~~~~~

read the rest at :

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=680_1193681069
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Post Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:27 am 
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Eclipsed Gaia



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
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I dunno, the whole problem with this information is that to truly understand the actual structural failure conditions within the two towers at impact of the aircraft would have required scientific instrumentation having been present to take readings on the event as it happened. Anything else is just theory based on the buildings "on paper" design and specs, the known burn temp of Jet A, and an estimated force of impact.

The biggest problem is that now there is no way of knowing if the towers were actually built to spec. Often times in construction changes are made to both design and material on site that never get logged into the construction record. Sometimes, sadly, this is due to illegal cost cutting by using cheaper construction methods and or materials. And there certainly a good possibility there was an inherent design flaw in the towers to begin with that has not yet been identified by modern structural engineering. Things have to fail in a way that can be accurately analyzed and understood before they can be recognized by engineers as a flawed design and not used again. In the case of 9/11 the scale of the disaster made such analysis very difficult to conduct with any degree of certainty.

Now what this report is suggesting favors the conspiracy theorists. That somehow the event was orchestrated by our own government. Personally I doubt such a thing could be pulled off without someone coming forward with evidence. Don't get me wrong, I think the govt. certainly does lie about a great deal of things. But something like this would have had to involve too many people for all of them to be quiet. But, one never knows. It could be the truth may yet come out or maybe, and more likely, 9/11 was.....exactly what it was.

Post Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:51 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Have you been reading truth feeds, above top secret, or some other conspiracy blog that rarely gives reference data to back up what they say?

I have to say that I love Eclipsed Gaia’s response and find that I agree with what she said.

I also read an article about this once in a waiting room at a doctors office in “popular mechanics” and I was able to find that same article online at…
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=1

I think it is a very interesting article.

The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

So…if the NIST says that it cannot totally explain the collapse of the WTC towers then by not saying it was by controlled demolition they are saying it was by controlled demolition?????? WOW

“12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

“NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.
The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.”

When I read that it tells me there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapse….lets read on.

“Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.
Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.” Taken from http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm


In a recent letter (PDF link) to 9/11 victim's family representatives Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine, NIST states, "We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse."

Ummm…there is not link there…but I hunted the letter down and read every word of it…and I believe that the collapse of the WTC towers will never be fully explained to everyone’s satisfaction.

A 10,000 page scientific study only offers theories as to how the "collapse initiation" proceeded and fails to address how it was possible for part of a WTC structure to fall through the path of most resistance at freefall speed, completely violating the accepted laws of physics.

“6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A).
As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:
“… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.
Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.”
In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.
From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.” Taken from http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

According to the report the physics works based on available information.

In addition, NIST's own studies confirmed that virtually none of the steel in either tower reached temperatures hotter than 500 degrees. The point at which steel weakens is 1000 degrees and melting point is reached at 1,500 degrees, according to NIST itself.
Hmm I am not sure where you got this information but from the fact sheets of the NIST study…

“7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).
However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.
UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.
NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.
Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.” Taken from http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

NIST have yet to properly address the sudden freefall collapse of WTC Building 7, which imploded on the late afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a jetliner. Phoenix

June 29, 2007
“A team of scientists and engineers at the Commerce Department's National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) that is investigating the collapse of New York City's World Trade Center 7 (WTC 7) building expects to release its draft report for public comment by the end of the year. WTC 7 was a 47-story office building adjacent to the WTC towers (WTC 1 and 2) that collapsed following the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. WTC 7 collapsed later that afternoon.” Michael Newman NIST

“14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released for public comment by the end of 2007 and that the final report will be released in early 2008.
The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:
An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;
Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and
Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.” Taken from http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
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All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:47 pm 
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Phoenix
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This is a nice reply Eiregirl. I am familier with all this information. I do find it convenient that there is no independent investigation of the event via actual debris since they hauled it all away as quickly as possible and no one seems to be able to get their hands on the debris now.

There is a tape of a fire captain on the 82nd floor or there abouts saying they only needed two lines to knock down the fire which indicates it was not a roaring inferno at all. Hmmm, two hoses to put out the bldg fire. There are images of people on the upper floors where the plane hit waving for help... seems if the fires were that hot they would be a bit more uncomfortable or gee, maybe burning to death in such close proximatey to 1000 degree or celcius fires.

There is other evidence of people including bldg maintenance and firemen who heard loud explosions in the basement of the bldgs. Some said "oh those must have been from gas tanks in the kitchens, but those there said that would not have been possible, and why would they blow up anyway. The beams in the very basement were seen to have melted and yet there is no explanation as to why those would have melted.

Other problems on that day are the fact that over 260 Billion dollars worth of gold seems to have been lost that were housed in the towers by various banks.

Silverstein took over the lease of the bldgs just six weeks prior to 911, and he took out insurance policies worth more than 2 billion dollars specifically for terrorist attacks including airplanes. He also halted the security patrol of bomb sniffing dogs two weeks prior to the event.

Prior to the attacks put options were placed on boeing, and the airlines involved in the attacks that were over 25 times the daily norm, and other call options were placed on stocks of reinsurance companies that would profit from the attacks. 5 year bond notes were purchased at an unusually high volume before the attacks.

You know when something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck. For more reading here is some information :

http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/stockputs.html
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Post Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:59 pm 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Location: Chasing a pink bunny


I love playing with conspiracy theories Smile

This is a nice reply Eiregirl. I am familier with all this information. I do find it convenient that there is no independent investigation of the event via actual debris since they hauled it all away as quickly as possible and no one seems to be able to get their hands on the debris now.

Hauled it all away as quickly as possible? 9 months is pretty fast I suppose considering I thought it would take close to a year.
I would also have liked to have a few independent inspections of the debris myself...kinda late now though But there have been several independent investigations of all the data collected.

There is a tape of a fire captain on the 82nd floor or there abouts saying they only needed two lines to knock down the fire which indicates it was not a roaring inferno at all. Hmmm, two hoses to put out the bldg fire.

Now that I would like clarification on because I have never heard anything about that and for some reason…I can’t find anything about it.

There are images of people on the upper floors where the plane hit waving for help... seems if the fires were that hot they would be a bit more uncomfortable or gee, maybe burning to death in such close proximatey to 1000 degree or celcius fires.

I think I would be waving for help too if I could not find any way out…wouldn’t you?

So on one hand you have 500 degree F temps and now you have 1000 degree C temps…I am starting to get confused with the swinging pendulum of temperatures and besides those people were several floors away from the fire. Confused

There is other evidence of people including bldg maintenance and firemen who heard loud explosions in the basement of the bldgs. Some said "oh those must have been from gas tanks in the kitchens, but those there said that would not have been possible, and why would they blow up anyway. The beams in the very basement were seen to have melted and yet there is no explanation as to why those would have melted.

The beams in the basement sat in a smoldering heap for nearly six months with firefighters trying to put it out and not only was it burning all that time there were also chemical reactions taking place in the smoldering heap.
As far as the explosions that people say they heard…I have read what they had to say…I will not call them liars because I was not there to hear anything. I will however say that there were people who heard all kinds of noises after the planes hit but no explosions at ground level or in the basement and then AFTER the building started collapsing there was a lot of noise.

Other problems on that day are the fact that over 260 Billion dollars worth of gold seems to have been lost that were housed in the towers by various banks.

I wonder if it is 600 million 1.6 billion 160 billion 260 billion…that number just seems to keep jumping all over the place and does not know when to stop. 260 billion is not a fact it is somebody’s (not yours) one brain cell idea to keep adding to the figure to make it look bigger and better. All anyone would have to do it petition for the insurance records to find out just how much was “claimed” to be unrecovered…I wonder how many filed false insurance claims? Shocked

Silverstein took over the lease of the bldgs just six weeks prior to 911, and he took out insurance policies worth more than 2 billion dollars specifically for terrorist attacks including airplanes. He also halted the security patrol of bomb sniffing dogs two weeks prior to the event.

Soooo…beware if you ever by a building and purchase insurance that is well below what it would cost to rebuild because if something happens to the building we will blame you and accuse you of knowing something about it just because your name is Phoenix.

Prior to the attacks put options were placed on boeing, and the airlines involved in the attacks that were over 25 times the daily norm, and other call options were placed on stocks of reinsurance companies that would profit from the attacks. 5 year bond notes were purchased at an unusually high volume before the attacks.

Ever think that maybe Osama Bin Laden had some friends informed and perhaps they were smart enough to know how to place a few options?



Just because I am taking an opposing opinion on this do not think for one minute that I believe everything the government says...I question everyting they do.


Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
_________________
All poems and stories posted by Eiregirl are Copyright 2005 - 2008 Aoibhegréine These literary works are my property under copyright. If you wish to use my work for any purpose please ASK FIRST.

Post Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:06 am 
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Phoenix
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Ah, you never let me down Eiregirl, a true debater, this is fun! Smile

I will reply to each point later, but right now I have to get ready for a conference call. Hmmm, maybe this needs to be moved to the debate section, I don't care if it is or not, but a mod may want it moved there since it is clearly now a fun debate.


phoenix
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Post Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Phoenix
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quote:
Originally posted by Eiregirl:
I love playing with conspiracy theories Smile

There is a tape of a fire captain on the 82nd floor or there abouts saying they only needed two lines to knock down the fire which indicates it was not a roaring inferno at all. Hmmm, two hoses to put out the bldg fire.

Now that I would like clarification on because I have never heard anything about that and for some reason…I can’t find anything about it.

go to http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/audiotape.html

I've heard the actual tape, but Chief Palmer said "Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines."

There is no fear evident, and certainly no sign of intensely hot fires that would melt steel, but two small pockets that the Chief felt could be easily put out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

There are images of people on the upper floors where the plane hit waving for help... seems if the fires were that hot they would be a bit more uncomfortable or gee, maybe burning to death in such close proximatey to 1000 degree or celcius fires.

I think I would be waving for help too if I could not find any way out…wouldn’t you?

So on one hand you have 500 degree F temps and now you have 1000 degree C temps…I am starting to get confused with the swinging pendulum of temperatures and besides those people were several floors away from the fire. Confused

I was listing the vast difference in temps as a sign that whether it's 1000 degree fire or celcius that is very hot, and the people did not look at all as if they were anywhere near that kind of heat which was 1 floor away... that kind of heat someone would be waving and looking in much more distress due to the physical pain of that close proximity to the heat... I add this as it was the same building Chief Palmer was in, and the fire was not hot enough to stress the steel as we have been told.

There is other evidence of people including bldg maintenance and firemen who heard loud explosions in the basement of the bldgs. Some said "oh those must have been from gas tanks in the kitchens, but those there said that would not have been possible, and why would they blow up anyway. The beams in the very basement were seen to have melted and yet there is no explanation as to why those would have melted.

The beams in the basement sat in a smoldering heap for nearly six months with firefighters trying to put it out and not only was it burning all that time there were also chemical reactions taking place in the smoldering heap.
As far as the explosions that people say they heard…I have read what they had to say…I will not call them liars because I was not there to hear anything. I will however say that there were people who heard all kinds of noises after the planes hit but no explosions at ground level or in the basement and then AFTER the building started collapsing there was a lot of noise.

People saw moltem metal coming out the side of the bldg away from the crash area, and in the basement immediately after the collapse, areas were accessible... I can dig up the references, but these are statements from people on scene.... and thermite would cause that sort of high temp melting of steel... the jet fuel and office fires would not.
~~~~~~~~~~


Other problems on that day are the fact that over 260 Billion dollars worth of gold seems to have been lost that were housed in the towers by various banks.

I wonder if it is 600 million 1.6 billion 160 billion 260 billion…that number just seems to keep jumping all over the place and does not know when to stop. 260 billion is not a fact it is somebody’s (not yours) one brain cell idea to keep adding to the figure to make it look bigger and better. All anyone would have to do it petition for the insurance records to find out just how much was “claimed” to be unrecovered…I wonder how many filed false insurance claims? Shocked

Silverstein took over the lease of the bldgs just six weeks prior to 911, and he took out insurance policies worth more than 2 billion dollars specifically for terrorist attacks including airplanes. He also halted the security patrol of bomb sniffing dogs two weeks prior to the event.

Soooo…beware if you ever by a building and purchase insurance that is well below what it would cost to rebuild because if something happens to the building we will blame you and accuse you of knowing something about it just because your name is Phoenix.

That's cute Eire, and sure you would have a point that of course people buy bldgs and fires break out etc, but this was not just any bldg or bldgs, and Silverstein isn't just any man, but a close friend of the Bush's. My just one more odd coincidence. How interesting that the Condelezza Rice and other Govt officials said they could never have envisioned this kind of attack, yet there were several official documents dealing with terrorism before 911 that showed the twin towers with a bullseye on them and a plane flying towards them. I know I know, just a glitch and she made an error despite her press briefings going through all sorts of people for spin control. Back to Silverstein, why would someone remove security, bomb sniffing dogs for two weeks? Why would they clear sections of the bldg for days on end? That's what Silverstein did, but oh, he was just an unfortunate landlord who took over the lease 6 weeks prior to the event. I'm sure they said the similar things regarding the Rheichstag fire that lead the German peopel to want to go to war against the Chechs despite we now know Hitler burned his own bldgs to foment a rage within the population in Germany. Our government has had leaders in the past recommend similar stunts to make the population angry and willing to go to war... one I know of was against Cuba, but it was turned down at the time... point being people actually suggested this tactic for propaganda against our own people to justify war.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Prior to the attacks put options were placed on boeing, and the airlines involved in the attacks that were over 25 times the daily norm, and other call options were placed on stocks of reinsurance companies that would profit from the attacks. 5 year bond notes were purchased at an unusually high volume before the attacks.

Ever think that maybe Osama Bin Laden had some friends informed and perhaps they were smart enough to know how to place a few options?

If that were the case then just reveal who put those options on the stock, but the SEC has refused to investigate despite saying they would, and have not revealed the results seven years later. Seems to me it is obvious something was not adding up or they would reveal the information. I find it hard to imagine they can't find out who requested the puts (orders to sell stock) on the airlines and Boeing and the buying options on the other stocks that would profit after the attack.



Just because I am taking an opposing opinion on this do not think for one minute that I believe everything the government says...I question everyting they do.

History has proven they purposefully sailed the Lusitania into German U-boat waters, they had information of the coming Pearl harbor, and we have a think tank saying that the way they wanted the country to go would require a new "Pearl Harbor" like attack to make it happen more expediently. Did the government help bring down the twin towers? Did they just know it was a plan and do nothing? Right now, there is much circumstantial evidence to point to involvement, but because they refused independent investigation, have refused to reveal pertinent information, and deal with these "odd" points of information, it leads one to believe not all is as it seems. We do know that Bush/Chaney had planned on going to war before taking office, and that they needed a catalyst..... How many have to die, who will make money off the war, and what liberties will be lost in the cry for security they are purposefully not securing both at home and abroad by stirring up the next generation of terrorists.

Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow


Hugs,

Phoenix
_________________
"A little work won't hurt you bad, but just in case I'm wrong, you'll be smiling when they pronounce you dead." Amanda Marshall 'This could take all night

Post Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:07 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 10230
Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Smile

I've heard the actual tape, but Chief Palmer said "Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines."

There is no fear evident, and certainly no sign of intensely hot fires that would melt steel, but two small pockets that the Chief felt could be easily put out.
Phoenix

I would not expect to hear any fear or anything but professionalism from a fire chief who is on the job and doing what he was trained to do and who has obviously been doing it for years.

Thank you for the information about that. I have been able to do some pretty good research and was even able to find a site where I could actually listen to the actual recording. From that quote people seem to extrapolate that the fire is not really all that big or not big enough to cause any major damage and especially damage to the steel structure.

Lets take a close look at this and not just that one quote…lets go a little further. Smile

"Battalion Seven Chief: "Battalion Seven ... Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor numerous 10-45 Code Ones."
Ladder 15: "What stair are you in, Orio?"
Battalion Seven Aide: "Seven Alpha to lobby command post."
Ladder Fifteen: "Fifteen to Battalion Seven."
Battalion Seven Chief: "... Ladder 15."
Ladder 15: "Chief, what stair you in?"
Battalion Seven Chief: "South stairway Adam, South Tower."

Ohhh stairway A in the south tower…hmmm
78th floor hmmm ohhh SKY LOBBY that is where only a wingtip hit hmmm

Time to start digging for info Neutral

First of all from this quote there is no way to determine what was happening on higher floors and it is not unreasonable to expect two pockets of fire on a floor where only a wingtip hit and on a floor that did not have a lot of office furniture (it is the sky lobby). Just because they only found two small pockets of fire on the floor does this mean there was not a larger fire prior to the firemen arriving? Could he see to every corner of the 78th floor? We do not know that because he never said but we do know that he was still in the stairway…stairway A of the south tower. To me this really tells me nothing as to what was taking place on the entire floor or the floors above…what was it like on the 80th or 81st floors or even the 82nd.
The only reason I can see this quote being used on all the conspiracy sites is because of the impression it gives of “small” fires. If you want to see fire…check out the pictures and videos and you will see fire and lots of it on higher floors.

There are images of people on the upper floors where the plane hit waving for help... seems if the fires were that hot they would be a bit more uncomfortable or gee, maybe burning to death in such close proximatey to 1000 degree or celcius fires.

I was listing the vast difference in temps as a sign that whether it's 1000 degree fire or celcius that is very hot, and the people did not look at all as if they were anywhere near that kind of heat which was 1 floor away... that kind of heat someone would be waving and looking in much more distress due to the physical pain of that close proximity to the heat... I add this as it was the same building Chief Palmer was in, and the fire was not hot enough to stress the steel as we have been told.
Phoenix


How are these people suppose to look? Shocked Are there any clear pictures of them? Can we see their faces? Hear their screams for help? How are they suppose to act? Gee some of them even jump to escape the fire because they have no other way out. So tell me how are they suppose to act and what are they suppose to do?

The beams in the very basement were seen to have melted and yet there is no explanation as to why those would have melted. Phoenix

This I have a problem with because on one hand you have people saying there was melted steel in the basement and others saying there was no melted steel in the basement with both claiming conspiracy. It was either melted or not...I wish they would make up their minds. It appears to me that everyone who was not there is trying to make something out of something they know nothing about. So lets see what someone who has seen steel in a fire has to say, "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks." Also anyone who has taken any engineering classes or even physics knows what heating and cooling of metals can do without having to take them to the melting point.

People saw moltem metal coming out the side of the bldg away from the crash area, and in the basement immediately after the collapse, areas were accessible... I can dig up the references, but these are statements from people on scene.... and thermite would cause that sort of high temp melting of steel... the jet fuel and office fires would not. Phoenix

Now we go from melted steel in the basement to molten metal pouring from the building…the molten metal is most likely from the airplane and perhaps some low grade metals in the offices…airplanes are made mostly out of aluminum which has a much lower melting point than steal. Jet fuel burns at around 800° to 1500°F. Now that is not hot enough to melt steel but more than hot enough to melt aluminum which depending on the composition will melt between 840°F to 1200°F.

Silverstein isn't just any man, but a close friend of the Bush's. My just one more odd coincidence. Phoenix

Should Silverstein be looked at with some suspicion because of his actions…well it would not hurt to ask him a few tough questions but lets look at some facts.
He did not win the initial bid for the property. The initial winners of the bid wanted to make some changes to the contract but the Port Authority did not want to make those changes so the initial winners backed out of the deal so it was made known that the property was still up for bids and around April of 2001 is when Silverstein was named the winner. So he now has billions of dollars worth of property that needs what? Insurance. I know when I buy a house to remodel and sell I also buy insurance on that property…why? To cover my ass. I do not blame him one iota for buying insurance against terrorist attacks for the very fact that the towers had already been targeted once before which is something many people seem to overlook as far as his buying insurance is concerned.

The dogs…here is another good one (shakes head)…bomb sniffing dogs…can’t win with this one and you can’t lose with it because if you point out that the dogs were there because of bomb threats in early August and then pulled out after a heightened alert was canceled people still say they were pulled out so people could move in and place bombs all over the place and get all the bombs placed in time to blow the building up (the dogs were taken out around September 6). People also claim that it does not matter if dogs were there or not because “ex plo sives” that dogs could not detect were used…shakes head again…some of the stuff I have been reading (not from you {not yet anyway} but in articles and on the web) makes me just want to slap some sense into some people. Rolling Eyes

How interesting that the Condelezza Rice and other Govt officials said they could never have envisioned this kind of attack, yet there were several official documents dealing with terrorism before 911 that showed the twin towers with a bullseye on them and a plane flying towards them. I know I know, just a glitch and she made an error despite her press briefings going through all sorts of people for spin control. Back to Silverstein, why would someone remove security, bomb sniffing dogs for two weeks? Why would they clear sections of the bldg for days on end? That's what Silverstein did, but oh, he was just an unfortunate landlord who took over the lease 6 weeks prior to the event. I'm sure they said the similar things regarding the Rheichstag fire that lead the German peopel to want to go to war against the Chechs despite we now know Hitler burned his own bldgs to foment a rage within the population in Germany. Our government has had leaders in the past recommend similar stunts to make the population angry and willing to go to war... one I know of was against Cuba, but it was turned down at the time... point being people actually suggested this tactic for propaganda against our own people to justify war. Phoenix

I do not doubt there are things the government does behind closed doors that most people would not think they would do or should do and being an avid history buff I know what many governments and people in power have done in the past but just because those things were done in the past does it mean people of today are not capable of such atrocities? No it does not because people of today are capable of doing some very terrible things. I would not doubt that some terrible things have been done claiming “it was for the good of the country” or “it was done to protect the country” or “we did it because it is in the best interests of the people” but most of the time it was still the wrong thing to do and should not have been done. I do not like people who are underhanded in what they do and I do not think the government should do those kinds of things. I know the government has taken advantage of the situation in pushing for things such as the Patriot Act of which I was avidly against…but with all of that said…some people are capable of anything but I do not believe the President or anyone in a high ranking position in the United States government had any direct involvement in what happened on September 11. Were mistakes made in communications between branches of the government and law enforcement? Yes and if those mistakes had not been made there is still a possibility the attacks would have happened. Were mistakes made when known terrorists slipped into the country…some did not slip they just walked right on in? Yes and if we had better border security they most likely would not have made it into the country.
Has this administration and prior administrations done things that I do not agree with in regards to foreign policy and terrorism? Yes and Clinton should have killed Osama when he had the chance. I could less about the reward on that SOB’s head…if I ever got my hands on that SOB Evil or Very Mad I would skin him alive and bury him where he would never be found and let his followers think he deserted them.


Hugs,
Eiregirl Arrow
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Post Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:24 am 
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Eiregirl



Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Location: Chasing a pink bunny


Neutral
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Post Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:37 am 
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33LB



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Phoenix, you know that for a conspiracy to work, everyone involved needs to keep silent, right?

imagine how many people would be involved in a 9/11 conspiracy. there's government officials, demolition teams, people at the airports, etc.

now, given how morally sickening it would be to kill 6000 innocent civillians, how could ALL of these people involved in the conspiracy be kept quiet?
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Post Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:31 pm 
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